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TiVo 7.2 OS adds content protection, blocks transfers, and auto-deletes some shows

We got a bit of a disturbing report over the weekend from a reader:

I recently got a sample of Tivo DRM, accidentally I suspect.  Recently a Simpson's rerun recorded with a red-flag next to it (an icon I've never seen before).  When I selected the episode, I got a message to the effect that "the copyright holder prohibited saving the episode past date mm/dd".  I also noted that this episode could not be copied using Tivo Togo (but ironically it could be "saved to tape" – I guess that is the analog hole).

I have two comments for Tivo, and one for any publisher who is foolish enough to activate this flag.

Tivo 1: Just because someone asks for a feature, there is no reason to give it to them.

Tivo 2: Better treat your subscribers well, or you won’t have a business.  Even your lifetime subscriptions won’t protect you when I (and many others) decide to switch over to an HDTV DVR.

To the Publisher: Go ahead and prevent me from saving your show past a certain date, I dare you.  I can’t think of a single show that I would still watch!  I can't think of a quicker way for you to loose my viewership!

Given that this was an episode from the early 90’s, I suspect the copy protection flag got turned on by accident.  None of my likely reactions will be accidental though...
--Michael McKay

Unfortunately, he didn't have any photos of what he saw, so I started looking around for similar reports. It didn't sound like an isolated or accidental incident. The TiVo support area carries an article about generic Macrovision support in TiVo but nothing on the new flag icon.

Several similar reports are found on forums. this post over on LiveJournal and this one on TiVo's forum both sound like network transfer errors, but people acknowledge in the answers that the behavior is part of the new TiVo 7.2 OS for certain programs.

This post at the TiVo Community Forums has the lowdown. It is related to last fall's macrovision policy change (covered here). The user posted screenshots of what he saw, and how he was blocked from telling his TiVo to "save until I delete"

Here is the now showing list with new red flags

Here is the Show Info screen

Here's the more info screen with scary warning about the copyright holder forcing this

And here's the last screen, explaining that you can't do anything with the show and it will self-destruct in 7 days

This sucks in the following ways (and many more I'm sure others can think of):

1. It treats all TiVo customers like they are criminals with big scary warnings about what you can and can't do. The TiVo interface normally is a friendly thing, not something throwing red flags everywhere. Surfacing the red flag to the top, then blaming everything on the copyright holder, and then having the TiVo website blame macrovision and even go so far as to say "Please do not contact TiVo Customer Support regarding copy protection related issues" is a total cop-out.
2. It removes control from your TiVo. For the last 7 years, you've been able to record and playback TiVo'd shows and save them as long as you wanted or had space. Now, outsiders are telling your TiVo when to delete themselves whether you like it or not. In some cases we're talking about programs you could have transfered last week with the 7.1 OS that are now being blocked. If you look closely at the ToDo list screenshot, you can see the previous night's King of The Hill doesn't have protection.
3. Previous mentions of this Macrovision "feature" discussed it only in terms of premium and pay-per-view content -- in other words, stuff readily available on DVD that movie studios might prefer you went out and bought or rented instead of just watched on HBO. Now I could understand that sort of restriction since a PPV movie is expected to be watched once and not saved or burned to DVD, but these examples are happening on regular TV shows, not premium movies.

Now, many people are saying this is probably a mistake on the part of a Fox affiliate station. They added macrovision "do not copy" tags to the show streams when they shouldn't have, but there was no workaround for the TiVo owner and it demonstrates what could very well happen in the near future with TiVos and other sorts of PVR devices. TiVo and other PVR companies have always had a rocky relationship with TV studios and with the loss of TV ad revenue and splintering of "prime time", TV studios have long been looking for a way to get control back. This could be their tool if used unwisely.

update: I just wanted to reiterate that yes, this was the result of a mistake on the part of the station providing syndicated shows. Still, my issue is with the TiVo software itself, for allowing red flags on content that was neither PPV or VOD. TiVo's head of legal assured Wired Magazine last fall that it would only apply to Pay Per View and Video on Demand, and yet, it appears it can happen to any show if the station adds the flag. This hole should be fixed so that mistakes in the future on the part of networks doesn't end up blocking normal TiVo activities.

another update: Dwight Silverman at the Houston Chronicle posted a quick interview with Jim Denney (director of product marketing for TiVo) about this issue. Sounds like the bug might be traced back to TiVo software misinterpretting noise in the signal as a flag.

by Matt Haughey September 13, 2005 in TiVo

Comments

It's easy to blame TiVo for implementing this, but they do walk a fine line with the broadcasters and studios. I think that it makes more sense to blame the broadcasters and studios. They are the onces who want these restrictions, not TiVo.

I will handle this the same way that I would deal with a store whose policies I disagree with - I won't go there. In this case, I won't record shows which have these new protections in place. Maybe I'll miss out on some shows that I have previously enjoyed, but I refuse to let the studios and broadcasters win this one without a fight.

Posted by: Don at Sep 13, 2005 9:42:12 AM

This is a BUG!

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3233152&&#post3233152

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3236586&&#post3236586

TiVo recognizes the Macrovision flag but there have been NO cases of a network or studio actually utilizing it.

Even HBO whose websites says OnDemand stuff can't be DVR'ed... well, I could TiVo my OnDemand stuff just fine. I did all the time. That was before 7.2 and I don't have HBO any longer but it did work.

Again - this is a BUG. Neither the local station or FOX intended for this syndicated rerun to be flagged like this.

Are bug bad? Sure. But it's not worth getting all up in arms at TiVo about.

Posted by: chris at Sep 13, 2005 10:01:27 AM

The problem here is that TiVo is getting blamed for the content providers party foul. While it sucks that TiVo implemented the features, its the studios and broadcasters faults for allowing it to happen. TiVo surely would elect to not protect any broadcast content if it had the choice, since it is bad for business - however, its not their choice.

Each of us has an obligation to vote with our remotes, dollars, and viewership. Elect to not support sponsors of shows which are being protected, and elect to not view those shows. Tivo is able to get very good data on this stuff via the anonymous logging, so it will be very obvious what shows are no-longer being watched due to copy protection.

Posted by: som yun gui at Sep 13, 2005 10:04:07 AM

Oh, this is a bug, phew. I'm glad it's just a bug and that TV networks have no way of keeping people from saving shows they recorded and exercising their fair use rights.

It's just kind of weird that this "bug" caused new screens to be displayed on TiVo boxes and added pages like http://www.tivo.com/copyprotection/ to the TiVo website.

Chris, if it wasn't for your reassurance that this is a bug, I would have thought that TiVo had deliberately included this functionality on purpose.

Posted by: George Hotelling at Sep 13, 2005 10:06:17 AM

George is exactly right. The activation of the feature is a bug, but the fact that such functionality exists in the first place goes against the whole ethos of Tivo. If I *ever* see one of those red flags show up on my screen I will start building my own DVR (and do it right, damn the costs) and make sure it can always do what *I* want. I will NOT accept DRM like this - TivoToGo already had me upset.

Posted by: Joshua Ochs at Sep 13, 2005 10:47:00 AM

I can't get behind this, TiVo-as-victim mentality. Regardless of this being a bug- it exists, and you can bet your ass it's going to be used and abused in the future.

Saying TiVo didn't have a choice is the same old bullshit cop-out, "Just following orders" nonsense that people who do bad things have been using since the dawn of man.

Posted by: Phil at Sep 13, 2005 10:54:38 AM

The simpsons/king of the hill episodes being flagged as protected is the bug, not the functionality to do so, that TiVo has openly admitted to including in their product. I suggest you read the following article:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3

Posted by: Gonzotek at Sep 13, 2005 10:54:44 AM

The bottom line is this restrictive functionality has been built and pushed out to our boxes, as others have said. I'm counting down the days until the NFL or HBO threatens Tivo or maybe works out a financial settlement which results in these flags being applied. And once stand-alone HD Tivo's hit next year, forget about it... all HD shows will be flagged and resolution degraded as it records.

Posted by: Smog Farm at Sep 13, 2005 11:02:08 AM

It doesn't even eliminate the stupid non existent problem in the first place.

I have a little workaround that you could use if this happened in the future. Need to be using TiVo with a cable box, of course.

Simply start recording a non DRM show, oh, say, Lawerence Welk, and then switch the channel with the cable box itself. TiVo thinks its getting Lawerence Welk, but is actually recording the Family Guy.

Would you do this all the time? No, you'd have to be physically present to do it. Does it enable a show to be DVR'd, TiVo to Go'd and sent away via broadband. Yes.

Thus, the show will be out there, and only TiVo users will be hurt and pissed off.

Posted by: John B. at Sep 13, 2005 11:05:26 AM

They have to run a business.

Posted by: chris sivori at Sep 13, 2005 11:12:18 AM

Correct.

TiVo itself allowed the 'feature' to be included but currently if ANY show is protected, it's protected due to a bug. Even HBO - which has said since June 04 they were implimenting it - can record without restriction!

Also, MACROVISION is the one that changed THEIR policy due to Hollywood pressure.

TiVo had to accept that or not use Macrovision at all, which would have compromised other TiVo features.

Posted by: chris at Sep 13, 2005 11:13:16 AM

Another thought...just because we're seeing this now with TiVo and some people are upset with TiVo and threatening to move to other systems, what assurance do they have that those other systems won't be similarly restricted? Even if not today, then tomorrow or the next day? A DIY PVR may be configured to not respect the copy-protection bits, but they generally are expensive to build and require the ability, time, and desire to do so. Not too mention that Hollywood also tried to enforce copy-protection in ALL HD capable video equipment(fortunately that effort was struck down earlier this year).

Posted by: Gonzotek at Sep 13, 2005 11:17:43 AM

The "please do not contact TiVo" this is a total cop-out, but it's also our key to getting this dumb-ass "feature" removed. It tells us that TiVo doesn't have the resources to deal with people calling up and saying "I can't save my shows!"

So... call them! If I run into this, you can bet your ass that I'll be on the phone with TiVo taking up as much of their precious time as I can. If enough people complain and don't take "no" for an answer, eventually they'll be forced to either remove the feature or to reveal a workaround (which I'm certain exists, BTW).

Posted by: Jacob Kaplan-Moss at Sep 13, 2005 11:37:27 AM

TiVo saved television for me. I just juggle too many things to waste time on whatever happened to be on. Between a full day at work and family activities, the only TV I got to watch was late night, which frankly wasn't worth the effort.

TiVo made it possible for me to catch quality programming in a timeframe I could manage.

If this kind of BS becomes dominant, I'm just going to cancel the TiVo and the satellite dish, put up an antenna for locals and buy the kids DVDs.

Posted by: Bill Reid at Sep 13, 2005 11:54:47 AM

I built a PC a few months ago to act as a sort of backup Media Center for the TiVo. With all the new features TiVo has been adding of late, I had been thinking perhaps I acted prematurely. This announcement makes me think I made the right decision after all.

Posted by: Michael Pate at Sep 13, 2005 12:12:23 PM

Oh, well, I can always see what the bookstore has for entertainment. I understand they have stories, too.

Posted by: Ernie Oporto at Sep 13, 2005 12:17:09 PM

A DIY PVR doesn't have to be THAT expensive or complex (although it certainly can get that way -- it is after all a PC at the heart of it)

Throw a 90 dollar Hauppauge WinTV PVR150 tuner/encoder card (with remote) into a "spare" 1ghz machine and either run MythTV or free as in beer GBPVR on windows.

The big plus of the PC is flexibility/extendability as well as the control unencumbered MPEG2 files.

*shrug* DIY PVR is probably not for everyone, but if DRM-less content access is important to you it's worth considering :)

Erik

Posted by: erik at Sep 13, 2005 12:21:00 PM

Support for these flags are already on DVDs and over the airwaves. Interlocking licenses mean that if a CE vendor wants to make a device that plays a DVD, then need a CSS license. If you want a CSS license you have to get a macrovision license. If you are a macrovision licensee you must obey macrovision flags on all your products. And those flags are in the vertical blanking interval in ANY analog source- whether it is in a vhs tape, dvd, or over the air broadcast.

Tivo is not a victim. It is simple mechanics. Most people want the option of a Tivo's with a DVD recorders and TTG more than they care about certain channels being temporarily unavailable due to some Klutzy technician setting a box switch wrong.

No big deal, but I am sure we will hear a lot of silly noise about the slippery slope and how MPAA is going to screw everyone if no CE vendors hold the line against them.

Baloney. DRM on Video will always at best be a suitcase lock. A minor speedbump. Hollywood is always going to have to compete with the convenience and cost of DarkNet available content.

Folks that want to bypass these controls can use a Sima CT-2 available at Best Buy, Compusa or for much much less on ebay. The new Zorilla CGMS filter that does not degrade the signal is available for more. The review is at SMR from Philip Brandes- I don't know if Matt allows addresses but here goes- www.smr-group.co.uk/articles/macrovision_filter_01.html

If you have a computer, most of the software used for dvd copying software will remove both the CGMS and the macrovision copy flags.

Posted by: Justin Thyme at Sep 13, 2005 12:33:28 PM

Ok, let's assume for a moment I want to make a DIY PVR. Starting from scratch(because it's cheating if you already have the stuff lying around):
$90 Hauppage card
$80-150 Licensed Copy of Windows (depending on the edition and where it's coming from, e.g. school/business discount)
$150-1000 Hand-built PC (of course the specs will dramatically affect the price)
Bottom line is it will probably cost more to DIY, and requires time and knowledge not always readily available, especially considering the generally frivolous nature of television.
Using a Linux solution is a money-saving possibility, but that limits us to whatever video/audio gear and software is properly supported under Linux(there is already some great development work happening here).

Not too mention needing to know how to do all of this (or having to pay someone who does).

I absolutely see the advantages to having a DIY PVR, but I see lots of disadvantages to the initial setup, compared with 'off-the-shelf' pvr products.

Posted by: Gonzotek at Sep 13, 2005 12:39:00 PM

Is there a way to block the OS upgrade? I know it's no answer, but at least it could stop this latest "feature".

Posted by: pb at Sep 13, 2005 12:54:04 PM

There are quite a few guides out there for DIY PVR for $500 or less. I spent $700 on my Tivo and lifetime membership, so the DIY would be a deal to me. If this is true, my Tivo will be up on eBay faster than you can 30-sec skip.

Posted by: John at Sep 13, 2005 1:18:33 PM

Gonzotek > luckily there are great resources/communities on the interweb with information on how to go the DIY PVR route.

A DIY PVR definitely isn't a cost savings. And it does have the inherent complexity of a PC. But it has the flexibility of a PC as well.

I dunno, I just have such a bad taste in my mouth with regards to DRM, and ownnig products where the "rules" change on what I can and can't do with a product I've already purchased. My Series 2 tivo didn't have a warning sticker that said "warning you may lose the ability to record/keep certain shows at an undisclosed future date"

TV my way indeed...

I guess if you want to "stick it to the man" you've got to roll up your sleeves a bit :P

e.

Posted by: erik at Sep 13, 2005 1:27:42 PM

Hah!

I moved to Canada 3 years agon and have been suffering from severe Tivo envy all that time. I finally built my own PVR using the awesome and FREE GBPVR software.

Not only do I not have to pay any monthly fees but I can throw an extra / larger hard drive in the machine whenever I wish. And now I do not have to suffer Tivo's "features". I am confident that the GBPVR community of users would quickly find a way around this Macrovision crap if it affected our boxes.

Thanks for staying out of Canada Tivo!

Posted by: bdgbill at Sep 13, 2005 1:37:28 PM

One URL is all I need to post: http://www.mythtv.org/

/that is all

Posted by: m. sherman at Sep 13, 2005 1:50:00 PM

If Tivo is going to move in to the video on demand markets such as downloading movies from Net Flix then they will need some sort of DRM to manage the movies. It is just unfortunate that the DRM was first introduced to Tivo's customers through a bug causing all sort of panic and rebellion.

Posted by: Allanon at Sep 13, 2005 2:33:25 PM

If you want to build your own DVR, go ahead. MythTV and FreeVo are out there, and you can sit back and be smug about it all you want, feel free.

The fact is most people don't have the skills to build their own DVR, and most people who DO have the skills can't be bothered to do it. (I'm in the latter camp.)

I'm somewhat amused that this has come up... AGAIN. This was a big tempest in a teapot a year or more ago when TiVo signed the MacroVision license. And I'll also note this is NOT the first time some show was erroneously flagged - it is rare, but it can happen. Probably just noise in the VBI that turned out to match the flag bits.

I will also note that this is not unique to TiVo - ReplayTV agreed to these terms a year BEFORE TiVo did. You don't hear about it much from RTV since their total user base is so much smaller than TiVo, the odds of a glitch happening to some TiVo owner is much higher. And other DVR vendors have also signed the same MacroVision license, it is very widespread.

To support DVDs legally you must have CSS, to have CSS you must license MacroVision. And MacroVision's license is, to pervert MicroSoft's GNU claims, 'Pac-Man like'.

On top of that TiVo was pressured by content providers to agree to the license to avoid trouble over TiVoToGo. And you could forget broadband content from any major provider if they didn't have this kind of license in place.

It is a simple business reality. Complain all you want, TiVo is NOT going to drop their MacroVision license, it'd cost them too much to do so. And they MUST support these flags under the terms of the license. They'd also be in trouble if they revealed any backdoors to circumvent the license - MacroVision could sue, or, worse, yank the license. Just like the DVD Forum has gone after DVD player vendors who have included backdoors to circumvent MacroVision and CSS.

Oh, and this showed up pre-7.2 folks. 7.2 may have made changes, but the basic support was in there before.

Posted by: MegaZone at Sep 13, 2005 4:07:19 PM

Cut the apologies for Tivo. This is still a garbage feature.

Posted by: andrew at Sep 13, 2005 4:48:06 PM

Like it or not, TiVo's choice is to not support MacroVision at all, or to abide by the license - which means supporting the restriction flags too.

Not supporting MacroVision at all is complete business suicide for them. So this is here to stay.

TiVo will lose less if even everyone bothered by this ditched TiVo than if they dropped their MacroVision license.

Posted by: MegaZone at Sep 13, 2005 4:56:08 PM

Megazone, is the whole macrovision license we're talking about only due to adding DVD playback to the DVD player/recorder TiVos? I wasn't aware that macrovision stuff worked over the airwaves, I thought it was just about DVD/VCR scrambling.

Posted by: Matt Haughey at Sep 13, 2005 5:06:38 PM

Didn't the court(s) belay the FCC and thereby shut down the forthcoming Broadcast Flag?
(Which was 'originally' intended for the newer, hdtv broaddcasts.....

So why are they implementing a broadcast flag here?

Did they think we weren't going to react against them - just because of a mistake?

Sorry, Tivo, you coulda done better.

Now I suppose I will make my own alternative entertainment PVR.

(Now. See what you made me do?)

Posted by: Daniel McAndrew at Sep 13, 2005 5:09:09 PM

Matt - No, TiVo had a MacroVision license since day one, as have other DVR vendors. Try to find a recording device without it - pretty much every VCR, DVR, DVD recorder, etc, supports MacroVision. It is pervasive.

MacroVision is a family of products, all designed to restrict recording and copying. Most people are familiar with the protection on VHS and DVD to prevent copying. But they branched out to broadcast protection too.

The license originally covered the VHS/DVD copy protection. But a couple of years ago MacroVision changed the license to include the broadcast protection. If you want to license MacroVision, now you have to agree to honor that as well. ReplayTV signed up, TiVo held out for a year but eventually needed to renew their license too and that meant agreeing to the new terms.

MacroVision *dominates* the market, and they use that position to dictate terms. TiVos option would be agree or not support MacroVision - but not supporting MacroVision means no DVD support either, since it is a cascading requirement. To legally support DVDs you need a DVD Forum license, for that you must agree to support CSS, and that requires a MacroVision license. Nice, eh?

But not having MacroVision would draw the ire of all the content providers, and would likely lead to TiVo needing to fight legal battles that would drain them. The same threat is why MacroVision is so pervasive - it is almost a protection racket. License MacroVision and the big boys don't lean on you, as much.

And they would definitely fight TiVo tooth and nail to block TiVoToGo if TiVo didn't honor MacroVision. And just forget about any of them allowing TiVo to have content for broadband delivery.

Not having MacroVision would be business suicide for TiVo.

Posted by: MegaZone at Sep 13, 2005 6:08:12 PM

Daniel,

This is unlike the broadcast flag. That was mandatory, and the courts basically said the FCC couldn't mandate it.

This is, technically, voluntary. Device makers, including TiVo, license MacroVision. Abiding by the license means honoring these restirictions if the content provider sends them.

While technical voluntary, de facto companies have no choice - which is why everyone signs the license and honors the restrictions. The market pressure is too great to resist, companies risk more by not licensing it than if they license it. Then there are the backdoor requirements - if you want to legally sell a DVD player/recorder you need a license from the DVD Forum. That license requires you to support CSS. And that requires a MacroVision license. 'Round and 'round we go...

Sure you can build a MythTV or FreeVo box - but most people don't have the skills or inclination to do so.

Posted by: MegaZone at Sep 13, 2005 6:12:20 PM

If i was still a TiVo subscriber, i would be canceling TONIGHT. I don't care if it was a bug, or if God came down and told TiVo to do this, they (would) have stepped on me, and i won't stand for it. On top of that, i'm never subscribing again, even if they say "my bad, we have removed _all_ DRM from the TiVo, and you can play back video files on your normal computer without without jumping though any hoops" - this is just unacceptable.

Posted by: Nate Friedman at Sep 13, 2005 6:48:07 PM

Nate - that's nice, I doubt they care. Just don't buy any other commercial recording device - VCR, DVR, DVD Recorder, etc - since it is pretty much impossible to buy one without MacroVision.

Stick to MythTV or FreeVo if it is a big issue for you.

Posted by: MegaZone at Sep 13, 2005 6:53:46 PM

MegaZone, i don't like it when i buy a piece of equipment and they change the rules after the fact - especially without giving me the option to stick with the old rules. show me a DVD recorder, or VCR with changing rules, and i'll show you a product that i would not only NOT buy, but i would tell my friends, and family that they shouldn't buy either.

*takes mental tech inventory*
SDTV... used for video games... rules don't change (sure they'll stop broadcasting for this in a few years, but i don't care... see below)
DVD burning computer... used for backups.. rules *CAN* change, but only if i apply updates. On top of that, there are usually ways to get the old rules (or apply your own!) if you DO apply updates.
TiVo... sitting in a box, stopped using it before rules changed.
cable... rules (read prices, and channel availability) change
satellite... rules change even more
aerial... what's the point for 2 channels?
free time... plenty! :D

After spending a few months in a tivo world, i realized that there was still nothing on, and i needed to go in the other direction. If i want to watch a movie, i can rent one, and stick it in my computer (hooked up to the TV) or PS2. I've never been healthier, (thanks in part to DDR, and in part to my free time) and i've never felt better. you should try it some time

like i said... if i was still a TiVo subscriber....

Posted by: Nate Friedman at Sep 13, 2005 7:18:51 PM

As for the people dissing MythTV and such, I believe I said "damn the costs" in my post - that means time and money. I know that this is not an option for most people, and that it is a very difficult proposition.

I don't tend to be a zealot about such matters, but Tivo changed my TV-watching life by giving me control. If I give that up, then what is the point?

Posted by: Joshua Ochs at Sep 13, 2005 8:27:34 PM

This is a bug? Bullshit. The bug is in your brain if you don't understand the problem here.

The law says that the owners and broadcasters of TV shows have absolutely no right to prevent you from recording and keeping them indefinitely. Tivo has built technology into their OS designed to give content owners exactly that right - allowing programs to auto-delete themselves. Just because the networks aren't using that feature doesn't mean they can't or won't. We should all thank the clown at the local Fox station who made this goof for exposing the cop inside our Tivos.

I'm a huge Tivo fan. I was a very early adopter. I've defended them as they made some questionable changes and choices, understanding the tightrope they're trying to walk. But at this point I can no longer defend them. I would be unable to explain to my girlfriend or mother why their recording of The Simpsons decided to delete itself, even though the law doesn't require it. Why bother having a Supreme Court if the influence of broadcast conglomerates is so strong that they can write their own "laws"?

Folks, it's time to make a stand. I understand that Tivo is the best DVR product out there, but I'm done. I've bled my last drop of loyalty. I'll keep my lifetime unit until it dies, but the secondary subscription box is going up on eBay tomorrow and a cable company DVR is going in. At least I KNOW the cable company is out to screw me.

Posted by: Pete at Sep 14, 2005 4:04:52 AM

TiVo, TiVo, TiVo! I'm sick of hearing about TiVo! It seems that all of the TiVo subscribers out there are paying large fees just to purchase the ability to record television shows and to "replay live TV" (yawn . . .)

If you would like to record shows, either use a VCR, or the now readily available recorders that use DVD's and/or hard disk drives. These disk-based machines often have included features that are comparable to those offered, for a price, from TiVo.

I suggest you all drop the TiVo service altogether. With the right machine, you'll have all the functionality without all the fees. Besides, how often do you really need to replay live TV?

Posted by: FIII at Sep 14, 2005 5:45:44 AM

"Just because the networks aren't using that feature doesn't mean they can't or won't."

Uh... yea, there IS something that means they can't or won't.

As you yourself posted it's called THE LAW.

This 'feature' is required due to TiVo's Macrovision license and the fact that this one show for this one user in this one market was flagged was a bug.

Jeez, get over it folks.

Myself and thousands of other folks record dozens and dozens of shows every week and I've found exactly THREE examples of this bug.

This is a non-story if I've ever heard one...

Posted by: chris at Sep 14, 2005 5:52:10 AM

I think everyone's overreacting just a bit. You go buy a movie ticket and that doesn't mean you can go back to the theatre and get back into that movie over and over again. So you won't be able to keep a pay per view fight on your TiVo for six months? Wah, wah. Plus, it's going to take ass-backward cable companies ages to even learn how to use this.

I (and a lot of other very happy Canadians) am happy that the 7.2 software was released 'cause it's added support for Canadian TV. Finally! That means no more PC sitting around, cluttering up my space, just so that I can use it download local channel guide info for my hacked TiVo and spend a hundred hours reading forums to get the damn thing to work. Now I can enjoy what you ungrateful bastards have been enjoying for years.

Posted by: warrenpeace™ at Sep 14, 2005 6:20:33 AM

1) Pete, replay/pause live TV is just one of perks of Tivo. I do use the pause feature quite often however, I mostly use the Tivo for it's Season Pass feature.
2) You can get a Tivo with free basic recording features the same as the other devices you mention. Either way you are paying for the device, but with Tivo you also have the option of getting the extra features if you want them.

3)Fill, yes it's a bug, but the reality is that it CAN happen. If there are no complaints about it now, then the networks may decide to do it permantently since no one cared. Yes there is law, but since no one ever breaks the law, we can just stop complaining then, right?

4) If you factor in the cost of lifetime membership and even the $50 Tivo's, you are around $350. For about $150 more (maybe less) you can get a full PC to do much of the same stuff and more. You get Net access, a gaming rig, word processing, etc... Plus an easy upgrade path. Add more space to keep things longer, burn to DVD, etc... I "think" you can even add more then one tuner card and record multiple channels simultaneously.

5) I love my 2 Tivo's though and have been thinking about buying another one but I may just decide to get a Windows media center or something.

6) I haven't tried in a while, but can't you still record PPV on a VCR? Especially an older one? (Mine are all 4-5 years old or older). If so then why is Tivo even bothering with Macrovision. They say it is for TivoToGo and DVD's I believe, but all the Tivo is in reality is a high end VCR. Why should it have to follow different rules? After a show is recorded, there is nothing I can't to with it that I couldn't do with a VCR recording. I can take my tape, transfer and digitize it to my PC, burn it on DVD or transfer it to a portable device. Heck, I saw a device in CompUsa last night that lets you view your TV over the Internet.

Posted by: Paul at Sep 14, 2005 6:31:40 AM

The fallacy in this whole thing is that Tivo is being forced to do this. They have all the legal leg they need to stand up and say no, I will not support this feature. The federal courts earlier this year came out and ruled that the FCC is powerless to make devices like Tivo's adhere to broadcast flags. The FCC only has jurisdiction over broadcast, not reception. This is just how the MPAA wants to protect their antiquated business models and screw the consumers.

Noone should accept this crap. Unfortunately, I am in an even worse position as I have TW cable, and their dvr. I have no doubt they will be doing this kind of BS to me in the near future if they haven't already.

Just because the quality of broadcast is improving, should not mean that we lose the ability to watch TV the way we LEGALLY have been for the last 20some years. (Since the release of the betamax)

Posted by: Brian at Sep 14, 2005 6:42:09 AM

If they don't fix this in the next release... and quickly... I'll be killing my sub & switching to firefly/snapstream.

The show will automatically delete in a week?! What if you're on vacation.... you're just out of luck!? I don't care if it is a bug or not, the fact the it can happen at all just really ticks me off.

Posted by: Billbo1970 at Sep 14, 2005 7:02:04 AM

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm

Posted by: Brett at Sep 14, 2005 7:10:50 AM

Thank God I sold my 2 tivo units and setup computer to record my tv show's. Tivo was a good service , but computer is free and burns to a dvd just fine. Also I when tv show's hit dvd I buy them. This just hurting a small man or working man. Wonder if this will hurt Sales?

Posted by: mardoon at Sep 14, 2005 7:50:47 AM

Certainly makes me happy istill am using a series 1 Tivo with software V 3.0

Posted by: tivodiot at Sep 14, 2005 8:31:45 AM

It's so funny to watch the idiots defending this ridiculous curtailment of our fair-use rights. Well, I guess there's a few in every batch.

Face facts, your Tivo sometimes will not let you record a show, or will delete it before you say. Not only is this a violation of your fair use rights, but it goes against the purpose for which the Tivo was sold and advertised (recording shows for personal use).

I encourage everyone with the sense to be against this "feature" write the pricinpals at Tivo and let them know your displeasure. It may be "business suicide" to endanger their Macrovision license, but it is also business suicide to piss off all your paying subscribers. You can get a list of Tivo executives from the Yahoo Finance page for TIVO: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=TIVO

Let's remind Tivo who pays the bills.

http://mrshiney.froppy.com/blog/

Posted by: Mr. Shiney at Sep 14, 2005 8:41:53 AM

Don't throw ReplayTV's name into this...I don't have any red flags on my ReplayTVs. They might have agreed to it for future products (rumor at this point), but it sure isn't on the current products.

I say go get a ReplayTV now because there are no restrictions on saving content...pay channels, PPV, or other.

Posted by: NSN at Sep 14, 2005 9:34:43 AM

It better be a bug.

Seriously, I could understand if TiVo implemented DRM to protect PPV content, NetFlix direct download "rentals" (if it ever is implemented), or simply offering this DRM standard to Comcast DVRs next year (when the TiVo software option becomes available) since Comcast already offers such DRM "features" for their customers. However, I find the thought of this being added to TiVo stand-alone units objectionable to say the least.

TiVo really needs to get its collective head out of its azz and bring to market an HD capable unit that can do H.264 encoding/decoding. Waiting around until the CableCard 2.0 spec is approved and adopted is counter-productive when the cablecos and the satellite companies offer DVRs with HD capabilities now.

If TiVo cannot get volume discounting for such hardware (the true reason why the Company was barely profitable just recently), then its time the Company sells out to a larger tech company capable of getting such hardware discounts...that being Apple.

And signing some compelling direct-download content would also help matters. Partnering with the IFC Channel to offer TiVo users the ability to download "Greg the Bunny" is not going to generate positive buzz amongst the media and generate fire amongst the TiVo community. Being daring and partnering with the BBC to offer *Doctor Who* directly to TiVo users in America would. Capitalizing off the stupidity of the SciFi Channel and others who did not pick up the show here in the States and making it a success amongst us TiVo users would create buzz in the media. And we all know TiVo needs as much positive buzz as possible to survive.

ps. And continuing on the DRM kick...I would find it most insulting if TiVo enacted DRM on syndicated properties belonging to Fox (such as the Simpsons) when it was Rupert Murdoch (Mr. Fox himself) who was responsible for kicking TiVo to the curb in terms of the DirecTV DVR contract and favoring his own company's (NDS) wares instead. Especially since NDS is a milimeter short of dislodging "Duke Nukem Forever" as the textbook definition of the term *vaporware*.

Posted by: The Jeremy at Sep 14, 2005 10:39:30 AM

Here's the official word with TiVo, Macrovision and even this blog commenting

http://news.zdnet.com/TiVo+copy+protection+bug+irks+users/2100-1040_22-5863529.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=zdnn

Posted by: chris at Sep 14, 2005 12:01:39 PM

What's interesting to me is that content providers are so worried about this. Basically we're taking extra time out to watch their programming. We're not just some complacent mass that only watches something because it's on when we want to watch TV, we've decided to actively seek out their programming and say "This. This is what I want". The value of this as far as marketing data is concerned is immense and should be soemthing they'd actually want (and we as consumers would want them to have as it'll keep your favorite shows on the air by showing that people watch them).

This just shows that they care far more about something so trivial as the marketing of the show. They want everyone to be watching it at the same time and then ready for the next episode the following week (none of the mini-marathons where my girlfriend and I watch the past month's backlog and get really, really into a show again). They want it to build a buzz and make things move back to the far more conventional marketing that they're used to. A real shame as the user loses out just to keep them in their comfort zone.

If networks really want to do the best job they'd make their content available (with ads) freely online where viewers can access it. Let me watch it on my time... not even when TiVo has a chance to record it because maybe I didn't know about it when it aired. Go back to producing content and let the consumer consume it in the most efficient, effective manner possible. I mean, you're giving the stuff away for free over the air (with ads) already, so why not just make it easier on us? Watch the unholy mini-monopoly your 1 local cable company has over you fall. When you want to put out a DVD it'll have better picture and sound quality and likely plenty of features, plus the convenience of not downloading and having to store all of the episodes on my hard drive. This is a no-lose scenario for content providers with vastly increased marketing data available... if only they could wrap their heads around it.

Posted by: Belgand at Sep 14, 2005 12:09:16 PM

Incidentally for everyone out there planning on swamping TiVo customer service. I work in customer service for a major computer company and get complaints all day long. Mostly they end up just going into the same simple log that a customer who just needs a transfer to tech. support goes in. Even if I sent the complaint to a "supervisor" it would likely end there as well because there simply isn't any real process for dealing with complaints. Send a letter in to the corporate office? We have a special team that deals with those and I doubt they make it a high priority to pass along complaints, the mainly just deal with serious, complicated, or legal issues.

If you call in to customer service you'll just be yelling at someone who's underpaid, hates their job, and your complaint won't go anywhere.

Then again, TiVo is usually a much better company than the one I work for.

Posted by: Belgand at Sep 14, 2005 12:17:37 PM

Well, I just bought a new Tivo setup and a year sub... Can't say I was pleased to read this news (which I found on www.gizmodo.com). I don't have a problem with not being able to burn my recordings to DVD, I don't care about not being able to watch them on my computer, but I absolutely don't agree with automatically removing my records after so many days! It's complete BS. Besides, wouldn't this screw the season pass feature?

Posted by: Yadda at Sep 14, 2005 12:24:18 PM

Boy, am I glad I learned how to hack my Tivo, record the video unencrypted, extract to my PC, and then burn it from there.

(oh, and it's hacked and running 7.2...and T2Go transfers are twice as fast using the hack method)

F.U., Tivo.

Posted by: Ben at Sep 14, 2005 12:27:50 PM

Was it a bug or a test? Are you sure?

Posted by: john at Sep 14, 2005 12:32:36 PM

If this is widely implemented, it's going to kill a lot of the reason we have TiVo. Since we contract a lot of our work (I contract from my home, and my husband contracts in addition to his full-time job), we sometimes have weeks on end where there is NO time to watch TV. We catch up during our slow periods. WTF did we spend a grand on a high-def TiVo with a huge hard drive for, if not to be able to save stuff as long as we need to?

Posted by: Alice H at Sep 14, 2005 1:22:09 PM

Man, I can't believe how many Chicken Littles there are...

Dumping TiVo for a cable company DVR isn't so smart - they already honor the same flags. The same kind of glitch has shown up at least once on a cable company DVR.

ReplayTV supposedly added this in the 5.x software, before TiVo did. Just because you've never seen a red flag means *nothing*. Only a couple of TiVo users have ever seen the flag, and that's a glitch. You haven't seen the flag because no one is using it!

If you want to build a MythTV or FreeVo box, fine, go ahead. But can you stop whining about it? If you're dumping TiVo anyway, there is no need to whine about TiVo, is there?

I will repeat, this is not new in 7.2, it has been in the TiVo for a while. Yet it hasn't been seen. Why? Because it isn't being used. So all the "Now that they have this they'll all be using it" panic is crap. The capability has been in there and isn't being used.

If you're going to freak out about restrictions on broadcast content, how about you wait until someone actually, you know, deliberately restrictions broadcast content? Just a thought.

Posted by: MegaZone at Sep 14, 2005 1:55:21 PM

If Macrovision is required before I can swap NFL games with up to 10 people around the county, then I'm all for it. Does anyone know when TiVo plans on delivering this? A remember a press release from about a year ago announcing that TiVo and the NFL came to an agreement after a FCC ruling in TiVo's favor.

-djz1

Posted by: djz1 at Sep 14, 2005 2:43:17 PM

Sigh, another mountain out of a molehill. Tivo has what, 3 million customers? How many people have seen these glitch? One? Two?

Posted by: Johanes T. at Sep 14, 2005 4:24:49 PM

Megazone: I think it's kinda important to stomp our feet and make it clear that fair use is important to people as consumers. Consumers of content (TV/movies) and consumers of products and services (tivo).

You can be concerned about this whether your have a TiVo or not. It's of concern because TiVo *is* a leader in the PVR industry, if THEY can't maintain the balance between customer access to content and bowing to content producers, we're all in trouble =)

DRM isn't a problem (as a consumer) until it's a problem and by then it's too late =P

I hold out slim hope that TiVo will have an acceptable cablecard solution down the road (before M$ does). If that solution is a half baked DRM'd mess I'm a little bit of a loss as to who/what to turn to for PVRing HD digital content

rampy

Posted by: rampy at Sep 14, 2005 5:19:29 PM

I fail to see why tivo even need to have a macrovision license agreement. Its needed for DVD players as outputting macrovision is part of the DVD spec, but a DVR just records and plays back video. I cant see what a 3rd party has to do with putting macrovision on it. They could have equally as well told macrovision to sod off and ignored any broadcast flags.

Posted by: Richard at Sep 14, 2005 8:17:22 PM

If TiVo needs a Macrovision license to make DVRs with built-in DVD players and recorders, and that license requires them to put this crap in all of their products, then why not just spin off a separate company to make the DVD units? Let that other company be encumbered by all these dumb restrictions, and let us use our standalone units to record things as long as we want, as is our right.

What bothers me most about this is it seems TiVo didn't even put an hour's thought into ways they could let us keep the features we're used to. They just caved in.

Needless to say, I've stopped recommending TiVo to my friends and relatives.

Posted by: Mr2001 at Sep 14, 2005 10:28:26 PM

ghey.

and why do people still buy tivos over replays, anyway?

Posted by: rp ftw at Sep 15, 2005 12:01:24 AM

...because ReplayTV has no future.

That could be the prime reason there. I'd rather bet on AmigaOS rising from the dead and becoming a serious set-top box platform before placing any money on Replay and whichever company (the fourth company to do so) buys up the remnants of Replay from D&M Holdings.

And from a business perspective, the only thing that would make acquiring Replay at this point a good business decision is only to sue Dish Network, Motorola, and Microsoft for intellectual property violation. Of course, to mount such legal challenges, one would have to have some serious cash reserves.

Posted by: The Jeremy at Sep 15, 2005 10:40:53 AM

rp ftw,

Well, let me see...

- ReplayTV agreed to these flags a year BEFORE TiVo did. So don't be so smug.
- ReplayTV has no future. They've stopped developing new HW, and apparently SW.
- Even the intellectual property is morribund, it was supposed to be recycled into a high-end media server, which was supposed to launch almost a year ago. It never did.
- ReplayTV lost their retail distribution at the same time TiVo expanded their's, making RTV hard to find for the average consumer.
- TiVo has a better scheduling and priority system, music playback, photo viewing (RTV makes you move photos to the unit and dedicate some of the drive - and to resize the partition you need to lose everything), official transfers to/from a PC (RTV has DVArchive, but that's 3rd party and the average consumer looks for turn-key solutions), Home Media Engine, broadband content delivery.
- Don't forget TiVo's with integrated DVD.

Basically RTV was a decent product, but they hit a brick wall a couple of years ago and just stopped. They even cancelled promised features like MP3 support, native WiFi, etc.

DNNA gutted the company and effectively killed the product. It looked like the tech was going to resurface as part of Enscient, but even their announced products turned out to be vaporware.

Now DNNA is suffering, and we've seen what appened to Rio - which they picked up from SonicBlue at the same time as RTV. RTV is being left behind not only by TiVo, but Moxi, UCentric, etc. And even non-DVR-focused companies like Sony and Pioneer, building their own home brand DVRs.

Posted by: MegaZone at Sep 15, 2005 1:43:13 PM

Ok, conspiracy theory time!

Maybe this was actually a very savvy preemptive strike from within Tivo Inc. it's self? Perhaps a disgruntled employee or even a planned public relations disinformation strategy.

What better way to illustrate how users would react (i.e. badly) to a legitimate use of content flags by broadcasters, than to have it accidently happen on a show of limited consequence in a limited market and raise a stink before content owners even get comfortable with the idea of actually using them.

My final analysis? content flags are the 'neutron bomb'. Great idea in theory but too politically charged to ever be deployed. Scrap them on the heap with DIVX and Sony's harsh DRM. The last thing you want to do is alienate your customer.

Why Tivo? and why does it matter? Make all the claims you want about 'Free'VRs and Replay, Tivo owns this market. They have more installed users than everything else combined AND they actually make profits. Their biggest worry is brand dilution (i.e. like Kleenex and Xerox, people are calling anything remotely like a pvr a "Tivo".)

Posted by: Marlon at Sep 15, 2005 8:28:27 PM

How about taking a different angle on this:

It's not TiVo's fault, it's not the broadcasters's fault either.

It's two entities you have to blame here:

1) Hollywood
2) Macrovision

Everyone jumps on Microsoft for having a pervasive monopoly on desktop operating systems, and got the US Dept. of Justice on them about it...

Why doesn't the Dept of Justice jump on the Macrovision monopoly? This smacks of racketteering, does it not?

Everyone's just gone and basically proved the point that this whole interrelationship with Macrovision and the content producers has been nothing but one strong-arm tactic after another to wrest control of people's Fair Use freedoms (at least in the US) away from them. It was fought long ago with Sony regarding the Betamax decision, and it'll be fought again soon. You'll see.

Thankfully there are solutions out there like PVR cards and Beyond TV, Sage, MythTV and the like.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward at Sep 16, 2005 10:38:16 AM

Serves everyone right for trusting a company like TIVO to begin with. Why the F anyone especially you "tech" guys couldn't see this kind of crap coming years ago is totally beyond me. Either stop funding this DRM nightmare by buying their shit, or stop bitching.

Posted by: justaguy at Sep 17, 2005 9:19:20 AM

Freakin' Nazis!

Posted by: Alex Maccise at Sep 18, 2005 12:42:04 AM

The solution here isn't to get mad at TIVO, it's to take the fight to the 'broadcaster' and the network and more importantly Sponsors...

Someone flags a show you like, you write to every advertiser, telling them you going to stop watching, you cc the network and the cable/sat company. if it happens too often on premium channels, you call direct-tv or whoever and you drop that service and tell them WHY...

Money talks.. if all that turning on these flags does is cost them viewers/subscribers, they won't do it.

I've got more stuff recorded on my TIVO right now than I can watch.. I've got LOTS of alternative stuff that might be interesting that I've not checked out yet (good enough being the enemy of better).. and I can always spend more time playing World of Warcraft.. No skin off my nose to stop watching simpsons or whatever program someone is stupid enough to 'flag' and limit my delayed viewing rights.

The easiest way to prevent this feature from being used is to have there be enough backlash that TPTB figure they can't 'afford' to turn it on..

Posted by: Tempus at Sep 20, 2005 12:55:43 PM

Just when we thought everything was going fine. Todd Lokken.

Posted by: Todd Lokken at Sep 22, 2005 7:37:46 PM

Watch me use my VCR and copy WTFever I want.
Or better yet, I plug my AGP-TV cable and record it all direct to the HD/backup tape.

ivo's watch-what&when-you-want features not-withstanding, of course.

Then again, I don't own an 'ivo device, never needed one.

Posted by: Ori Klein at Nov 4, 2005 10:10:15 AM

Whats the big deal just insert a Macrovision remover box in front of your TiVo.

Yea they are hard to find but if they start using Macrovision they will be all over the place.

Posted by: tm at Nov 4, 2005 5:38:41 PM

Macrovision can not be used on broadcast Tv because it violates the NTSC standard and the FCC has not approved its use.

It can only be used on cable and satellite channels.

If you do find it used on a broadcast channel you should file a complaint with the FCC.

However this is not new all cable and satellite boxes, vcrs and dvd players have this built in since the late 80s just waiting for the broadcasters to turn it on. But so far they have not used it.

Thats why Tivo is not worried. Everyone knows that when its turned on that the $9 clarifier boxes will start selling again. You know thats the box we all used in the 90s to copy VCR tapes. It is a joke how easy it is to remove the flag. They are more worried about the digital flag.
And dont think that because the FCC lost in court that that stops it. They are now trying to pass a digital flag law to force it in on us.

Posted by: tm at Nov 4, 2005 6:18:23 PM