TiVo CFO: No TivoToGo for Mac OS X Due to Cost

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TiVo CFO: No TivoToGo for Mac OS X Due to Cost

2004_05_10_sadmac At a talk at the University of Pennsylvania, TiVo CFO David Courtney admitted that it isn't in TiVo's plans to release a version of TiVoToGo that will work on the Mac:

"We haven't committed to any plans [for integration] to it because of the cost"

Ouch. When I heard that TiVo was going to use Microsoft's version of DRM on windows, I knew a mac client would be non-existent or very far off, but up until now TiVo officials have stated that mac support was always right around the corner, now they admit it could be years off, or not at all.

Seeing how the iTunes Music Store required a new version of both iTunes and Quicktime, I can't see how TiVo will be able to bring their DRM video to the mac platform for the foreseeable future. Either Microsoft needs to build a DRM-aware media player update for the mac, or quicktime has to embrace a new video DRM solution, both longshots.

The bummer is that of all the TiVo owners I know, at least half of them use macs, and now that TiVo has closed the DRM holes in their latest version, those mac owners can't legitimately play back shows on their own computers, in their own homes using the old method. A sad day for mac and tivo enthusiasts everywhere. [thanks Peter and Dave for the tip]

by Matt Haughey April 14, 2005 in TiVo

Comments

Well, that's it. They just lost me as a customer. I have 2 TiVo boxes and have been waiting for them to release an HD Tivo - but now I'll look for a Mac-friendly solution. Thanks for playing TiVo. See ya. (I'll be selling the stock I own as well.)

Posted by: El Payo at Apr 14, 2005 12:24:33 PM

hopefully, the community can come up with an easy solution. it's just sad that they kept saying "we're working on it" and "it's right around the corner" when they knew that it wasn't.

did they try and fail? did they ever start?

this is the underhanded corporate stuff that tivo was good at avoiding, but unfortunately, it seems that company culture has shifted.

if the service weren't so good, i'd leave in a heartbeat. but I'm not sure there's anything really that much better.

Posted by: regan at Apr 14, 2005 12:41:43 PM

I don't want to instantly painting Tivo as the devil here over this, but even though I have been a Tivo owneer for 5 years now and love the product, never being able to use this big feature of the service because I don't run Windows just downgrades the whole thing for me and makes it less likely that I'll stay loyal when the competition offers similar boxes cheaper. Sad, really.

Posted by: John at Apr 14, 2005 1:05:47 PM

this sucks and is a big black mark for TiVo. They were undeed saying they were wroking on it, but I know of no place they ever gave an estimate for when it would come out and I never saw anything from TiVo saying it was just around the corner.
So long to all the Mac TiVo owners :(

Posted by: ZeoTiVo at Apr 14, 2005 1:43:08 PM

Angry. So very angry...

OK, so can we start hacking those .tivo files for Quicktime in earnest now?

Posted by: whiteshaft at Apr 14, 2005 1:51:11 PM

Sadder thing is Mac users are such cultfreaks and loyalists in general, that all the hemming and hawing won't result in a huge user loss for TiVo. Obviously, they've studied this, and determined that the potential loss of their, I'd say, HUGE Mac user base vs. the cost of offering TiVoToGo to Mac users was negligible.

I say this as a Mac user cultfreak loyalist myself who dislikes this announcement from TiVo but still can't bear the thought of something else.

Someone, please slap us awake!

Posted by: Derek at Apr 14, 2005 1:57:44 PM

Is "quicktime has to embrace a new video DRM solution" really such a longshot?

I mean, considering how Microsoft is really dominating the whole DRM video field, won't Apple HAVE to come up with something to compete or at least keep up in that area?

Posted by: brian w at Apr 14, 2005 2:06:36 PM

I dont think Tivo wants to be a "cultfreak" company any longer.

Sorry Mac-Attacks.

Posted by: Tyson at Apr 14, 2005 2:09:38 PM

As of this writing, Tivo's site still thinks there's a Mac version coming:

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2181.htm

> Is the TiVoToGo™ Feature Available for Apple Macintosh
> Computers?
>
> TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo™ feature available
> on TiVo Desktop for Mac. We are currently working on ways to
> enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers. We will let our
> customers know in our newsletter as soon as this feature is
> available.

WTF is a "MacAttack"?

Posted by: Nat at Apr 14, 2005 2:13:09 PM

TiVo had better release something new and compelling soon, because all they're doing now is eating away at their loyal users -- either not giving them functionality they were once told to expect or eroding the whole TV-your-way philosophy with DRM and ads and downgrades.

At this point, the moment there's a good enough competetor to TiVo, it's going to be game over for them.

Posted by: Noah at Apr 14, 2005 3:09:00 PM

Hmm... well, I guess my next TiVO won't be a TiVO at all. I can respect a business decision (if not a misguided one) but for them to come out and say that they were "Hard at work" at a Mac version, then come out and say they were flat out lying... well, i have zero respect for that.

Bottomline: TiVo is moving towards locking down my video, putting up ads were there were once none, taking away features, and now lying to their clientel. I held out on saying this (or even thinking this) until now, but these seem like things that a dying, desperate company does. Unless this is rectified, they've lost another future customer.

Posted by: ~bc at Apr 14, 2005 3:37:56 PM

"I mean, considering how Microsoft is really dominating the whole DRM video field, won't Apple HAVE to come up with something to compete or at least keep up in that area?"

I'd agree, unless Apple has plans of their own to do a iTunes Movie Store someday (you can download movie trailers now in iTunes, so it's probably not far off), then they'd likely develop their own proprietary DRM, just like they did for music, without opening it up to others.

Posted by: Matt Haughey at Apr 14, 2005 3:41:06 PM

Joining this chorus: I too am a TiVo and Mac user. What this is going to do is shift me to something like EyeTV or a Apple Home Media option when that occurs. Too bad. And this will make me second guess my intention to purchase some TiVo stock.

Just too bad.

Posted by: Scott at Apr 14, 2005 3:54:16 PM

Yeah, I'm going to be looking at maybe a MythTV and Mac Mini combo when I need more units if this doesn't change. That position isn't reasonable to me.

Posted by: Phelps at Apr 14, 2005 4:05:59 PM

I guess I'm one of those loyal cult people I keep hearing about.
I own an iMac desktop, a Mac laptop and 4 TiVo units(1ea series1 and 3ea series 2 units). I own Apple and TiVo stock. I pay TiVo $33.80 a month. I'll be selling my 4 TiVo units and TiVo's stock.. I will then rent my DVR's from my cable co. I'll be renting 4 DVR's. One for each major network and one for FOX/ESPN. I'm retired and watch a lot of TV........................ See ya later TiVo

Posted by: Karl Kennedy at Apr 14, 2005 7:18:01 PM

Yeah, I too am disappointed. When I bought my TiVo about 15 months ago, Apple (rendezvous) compatibility was a big factor. So much so, I paid the extra $99 to get it (then as an option). Now, I am loving what HMO provides, even without TiVoToGo.

In light of all the backpedalling, I am not counting on TiVo to maintain any on-going Apple compatibility. So the feature set I am enjoying with my current unit already feels diminished.

Posted by: WES at Apr 14, 2005 8:57:46 PM

Tivo has a problem if they think this state of affairs is acceptable. Apple people are exactly the type of users they want. I'd guess that the megacoporations that own Tivo mandated the Windows DRM solution, but it's still not a sound engineering or marketing choice.

Posted by: Suspect at Apr 14, 2005 9:34:34 PM

Tivo must have market research that show how many people subscribe and are Mac users. They must have consulted this in their decision-making process and decided the cost-benefit ratio did not tilt in favor of "benefit."
On the flip side, and this is almost unknowable to anyone outside of Tivo's corporate HQ, how many Mac-using Tivo subscribers are going to cancel their service over Tivo2Go and when does the lost revenue number exceed however much Tivo calculated software development and support costs.
The can start the counting with my upcoming cancellation....

Posted by: joe at Apr 14, 2005 9:34:55 PM

Yep I agree with everyone on the board. I believe the last figures was something like 15% user base of Mac users, the breakdown did not give lifetime vs. monthly.
So I am not an MBA but I can subtract, 15 from 100 leaves 85, wonder if the investors can handle a 5-10% revenue drop, assuming that many people had a monthly subscription.
I called my cable company today and ordered the firewire enabled dual-tuner DVR and it was only $3.25 per month. So that would be somewhere in the neighborhood of over 90 months to break even with a lifetime subscription.
I have to give tivo credit the UI was one of the nicest to use.

Posted by: Poltergiest at Apr 14, 2005 10:18:03 PM

Booooo!

I purchased 2 Tivo units directly from Tivo, and was told BY THE TIVO REPRESENTATIVE that TivoToGo would be available for Mac and PC on the same day. Of course, that didn't happen.

Now this?! They LIED! FLAT OUT LIED! Ebay, here they come.

This certainly paves the way for the release of the Apple's rumored software intended to turn the Mac Mini into a tivo-like box for the living room. NAB is just a few days away. Here's hoping it's not just a rumor.

Posted by: Taz G at Apr 14, 2005 10:46:35 PM

Maybe I am missing something. Mac fanatics are leaving their tivo's in favor of the cable co dvr, simply b/c TTG wont support OSX?

So once you switch to the cable co dvr, you will have no HMO, no TTG and a crappy UI. Then in 6 months, your cable co is going to offer....TIVO.

Also, I think this might have been blown out of proportion. The acticle states, "We haven't committed to any plans [for integration] to it because of the cost," Courtney said. He added that being able to watch media on Apple computers using TiVo seems unlikely "unless we find a way to record it under the current platform, and I don't think that will happen in the next few years."

They havent ruled it out and looks like they are looking for a solution.

Posted by: Tyson at Apr 14, 2005 11:39:34 PM

I would like to hear what DVD Jon has to say about this.

Posted by: Jon at Apr 15, 2005 12:55:28 AM

Well, adios TiVo, hello sub-par Comcast DVR. Absolutely shameless and ridiculous. I guess I'll just keep my TiVo and use the basic (free) service but there's no way they're getting my monthly fee any more.

Posted by: Chris at Apr 15, 2005 5:56:44 AM

TiVo is having a hard time competing with Comcast in the DVR market. I think this is a cost-cutting measure. I love TiVo (have 3 of them) and won't give it up, but I am concerned that TiVo will become marginalized in the DVR wars.

On the flip side, this may create the incentive for Apple to create/buy/steal a home media option of their own. The last time Apple created a product for their own customer base we got:

iWork
Safari
iSight

Not too bad.

Posted by: Ron at Apr 15, 2005 6:15:16 AM

I have 2 TiVo's and 6 Macs (4 on OS X). One is a lifetime subscription and the other is a monthly ad on. TiVo to go was something I was looking forward to. So, when these TiVo's finally fail (they all do) I won't be replacing them with new TiVo's, it will be a Mac solution.

As I understand it, the TiVo customer base right now isn't large enough to maintain the company. With the alienation of all of us Mac users, I expect TiVo to either go under or get acquired faster than they would have anyway.

Posted by: Larry at Apr 15, 2005 6:16:37 AM

Recently, TiVo has started down a path of being less and less concerned about their customers (with the intro of pop-up ads).

This is just another step down this path. I use a Mac because Windows sucks. And I use TiVo because TimeWarner's DVR sucks. If I'm forced to use a PC to watch offline content, I might as well just get the TWC DVR since it doesn't cost me anything.

The point being that people TiVo needs to appeal to are those that are willing to pay a little extra for quality of experience. Unfortunately, by only looking at the numbers -- TiVo will make itself irrelevant in the long run.

CableCard support that should have been here last July isn't set to debut until sometime next year, more intrusiveness of ads in the user experience, no Mac support -- how else do they plan to piss off their customers? I certainly hope they're no longer counting on loyalty of customers to keep them going -- because loyalty is a two-way street.

Posted by: Mark at Apr 15, 2005 6:24:43 AM

I have 2 ReplayTV units and five Macs. One of my Macs is a 24/7 server on the home network, and runs DVArchive... so I really have three ReplayTV units on the home network (from a playback perspective). We can watch recorded programming effortlessly on any Mac in the house, and my laptop always has several recorded shows for remote viewing.

There are alternatives.

Posted by: Paul Wren at Apr 15, 2005 6:38:20 AM

I love all of these people so breathlessly writing that they are going to pick up their cable company's DVRs now.

HELLO?? They have even LESS MAC SUPPORT THAN TIVO HAS!! And good luck -ever- getting a cable company to have a TiVo to go service.

Posted by: JoLino at Apr 15, 2005 6:39:33 AM

It was a pain in the butt, but here's what I did to get my TiVo to go. Record to my camcorder, import to my mac using iMovie. Convert to a compressed quicktime format, or burn a DVD.

Now I use a Humax Tivo DVD recorder. It works well and at least the programs are no longer taking up space on my hard drive.

Posted by: Gary at Apr 15, 2005 6:52:59 AM

That really blows for you guys, I could care less however, if I want to watch tv I'll watch it on a tv -- while it airs, I never cared much for tv on a computer.

Posted by: Paul at Apr 15, 2005 7:10:32 AM

as I repeatedly say... I love my series 2 Tivo, but *this* is one major advantage to building your own pvr as opposed to buying a STB. I don't have to wait (nearly as long) to add functionality to my DIY PVR's... I can take advantage of a bevy of open source and commercial projects to install/modify/tweak to do what I want with my content, all without annoying DRM getting in the way.

A DIY PVR is neither as cheap or as easy as a TiVo (but it doesn't have to be very hard) but I don't have to deal with half hearted empty corporate promises and wait... and wait. I can drag content (from my PC PVR)over my network to my g4 gooseneck imac right now and play it. If I pony up for a plextor convertX I could record mpeg2 right to the Mac. If I'm feeling adventuresome I could put the MythTV OSX client on it (and so on, and so on...)

I'll stop now=)

Posted by: rampy at Apr 15, 2005 7:11:12 AM

What a bunch of crybabies. If you're a Mac user (like I am) you know the score: crappy software selection, later delivery of new products, and higher prices.

Now you want little TiVo to spend countless dollars to support the tiny fraction of its users who would really make use of the TTG features, when Apple itself could do it for a fraction of the cost.

You can already transfer your files to your Mac through the web interface. All you need to do is hack the .tivo files into something you can play on your Mac. Windows users have figured it out. Get off your ass and figure it out yourself, or quit whining.

Posted by: Buck at Apr 15, 2005 7:34:56 AM

Buck,
It's not that we want "little TiVo" to spend countless dollars. What we WANT is for them to deliver a service that they promised they were "working hard" on. So they either lied, or just gave up. I don't think it's whining to call someone on their BS.

Posted by: whiteshaft at Apr 15, 2005 12:04:14 PM

Anybody looking for another solution as a PVR should seriously consider an EyeTV unit combined with their Mac or a new MacMini. It has a few drawbacks vs. a TiVo, but a number of advantages as well. I've been using one for a year or two now and let me tell you, being able to easily archive everything to DVD or VCD makes a huge difference. When I want to share with friends, I just hand them a DVD. The UI is easy to use and learn, you can set the skip ahead and back buttons easily, and it has a simple built in editor for cutting out commercials. It has certainly expanded my movie and TV series collection. The web site is: http://www.elgato.com/

Posted by: joseph at Apr 15, 2005 1:06:38 PM

So has anyone started porting the MythTV front end to Cocoa yet? That and developing a $300 reference platform are the two things that MythTV really needs to do.

Posted by: akatsuki at Apr 15, 2005 3:01:17 PM

TiVo isn't available where DVD-Jon lives.

Posted by: utizaki at Apr 16, 2005 3:13:56 AM

I've got a TiVo, but I've got several Macs. Seems to me that exactly the same kind of fanatical customers by Macs as TiVos, so failing to support Macs is just plain stupid.

I'll probably think twice before buying another TiVo. And Apple will probably release TiVo like hardware soon and then it won't be an issue.

Companies that don't support Macs are stupid. There's all this talk about the cost of developing, but once the initial development is done, software is a minting machine.

Get it done TiVo, or risk appearing like the bulky big comapnies that don't respond to customer needs and slowly fade away.

Posted by: Jeff B. at Apr 16, 2005 11:06:32 PM

The funny thing is that TiVo's DRM is NOT based on any Microsoft technoloy. They simply wrote a custom DirectShow filter that decrypts their own propritary encryption and outputs a simple MPEG stream.

I don't know a lot about QuickTime, but my guess is that it does not have a plug-in arcitecture that allows them to take such an approach and/or they could not find a qualified Mac developer capable of creating such a plug-in.

As for hacking the DRM... Don't hold your breath! They're using the same encryption that has been used on ty files for years. And even with all the hacking going on in that community no one has been able to crack the encryption. There are ways to work arround the encryption using the PC DirectShow filter, but you would have to use Windows to make it work which kind of defeats the purpose.

Dan

Posted by: Dan at Apr 16, 2005 11:40:31 PM

I just bought mine at Best Buy 2 days ago. However I think I need to return it now. I do not support anti Mac companies in any way.

Posted by: Conrad at Apr 17, 2005 12:10:33 AM

People

You are aware the Apple is only weeks away from releases a settop box that will make tivo a has been.

Posted by: Dan at Apr 17, 2005 2:05:02 PM

I was at the talk at the University of Pennsylvania, and I want you all to know that you are taking ONE sentence WAY out of context.

Courtney also said:
-Around half the TiVo developers are Mac users, so those people have a vested interest in making it work.
-The demographics of Mac users are attractive to TiVo, and vice versa, so there was motivation for TiVo to make it work.
-Apple has shown no interest and given no support to TiVo to make TiVoToGo work. That's made it less of a priority for TiVo.

Maybe if Apple were under pressure to play nice with others, TiVo would have something to offer.

Posted by: Janice at Apr 18, 2005 9:05:47 AM

So. Yeah. Does Anyone know about this ACR 3.0 thing? Not sure if this is the best group for this question, but it promises to clean up the whole DRM thing and have multi platforms as far as I can gather.

Posted by: GL2814 at Apr 26, 2005 1:02:12 AM

Why all the whining from Mac-heads? You guys support the most DRM-happy company in existence, Apple. Of course you should expect your products not to work together. That's what DRM is for! Of course you should expect that the vendor will only offer you the barest possible usability that they can get away with. That's what DRM is for!

You've been forking over good money to Apple for DRM-laden gear for years. If you had any sense as a serious consumer, you wouldn't have put up with that shit for a minute. Quit with the crocodile tears and reap what you deserve.

TiVo thinks they can get away with this because their only serious competitor was sued out of existence by Hollywood. They think you're stuck. If you suckers would stop buying locked-down DRM gear, another vendor would pop up to sell you stuff without restrictions. How much brains does it take to build a computer, put Myth on it, and
sell it to consumers?

Posted by: Hypocrite Observer at Apr 26, 2005 6:24:42 PM

I am selling my Tivo for this reason and because I have the wildly reported issue of serious video artifacts with a Motorola digital cable box. On both issues - the company has promised a fix and I have been waiting for almost 3 months now.

Tivo has horrid customer support.

Posted by: Cobber at Apr 27, 2005 1:57:19 AM

Looks like TiVo is up for another "go" at this...

Google news off the presses says that TiVo is taking a stab at writing code for OS X.4...

To believe or nto to believe- that is the question...

Posted by: Russ at Nov 22, 2005 9:36:03 AM

I am a relatively new Tivo customer. But I am a long time Mac fanatic. I used both cable company and sattelite DVRs for years and hated them. I love my Tivo very much. I have used Tivo to go on my single PC laptop (yes I have both, but only 1 PC, 3 imacs and an ibook) and it is cool, but not that cool. Now my Tivo is a DVD burning Tivo, so maybe that makes a difference. It is much easier and faster to just burn a DVD of the shows I want to watch remotely, and I can watch a DVD on any Mac. Tivo to go took about 8 hours of transfer time to copy 1 hour of video through my home network. It takes about 20 minutes to burn 2 hours of video to a DVD.

I am assuming by now that Apple's DVR-type product (and the reason they will not work with Tivo on Tivo to go) is the addition of video downloads in itunes for $2 per show. Tivo would seem to be direct competition to itunes. No wonder apple will not work with them. But videos in itunes is not really a match for Tivo.

So, I won't throw out my Tivo. I really love it. And it is the best thing out there of it's kind. I will still love my Macs, but I will not be surprised by a short-sighted decision on Apple's part. Apple does dumb things from time to time.

If you can manage it, you should all get a Tivo with a DVD recorder. Just one on your network will allow you to transfer shows from all your boxes to burn on DVDs. Then you have everything to go, even pay-per-view movies. FYI, I bought my Humax recorder on an auction at Samsclub.com, new in the box, for $140. Has worked great now for 6 months.

Posted by: Mike T at Dec 30, 2005 1:14:40 PM

TiVo CFO: No TivoToGo for Mac OS X Due to Cost

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