Engadget plays with TiVo Desktop 2.1 Beta

« "Icon" ads over commercials at TiVo | Main | DirecTV's HD problem »

Engadget plays with TiVo Desktop 2.1 Beta

Engadget has found their way to a beta version of TiVo Desktop 2.1 and they give it a once over.

The good stuff they find includes better support for TiVoToGo on portable devices and a TiVo-branded video player complete with the green playback bar and sounds we're all used to. They also are getting rid of the playback password, which sounds like good news, but...

They're also doing what they can to keep the TiVo files from being seen by unclean ~~eyes~~ software. They block certain programs from playing .tivo files, to keep programs from transcoding the files into a format without DRM.

So this "upgrade" removes my ability to strip the DRM on .tivo files so that I can watch my .tivo files on my mac laptop? Awesome, since I woke up this morning hoping that my stuff would be less useful!

Also, what's up with the UI? The TiVo remote works because my fingers can feel around the rewind/pause/fast-forward buttons. Great physical UIs don't make for great software UIs. Or maybe I'm just bitter over the whole DRM thing and taking it out on a poor, defenseless UI.

Update: Dave Zatz, who reviewed the software for Engadget, has instructions on how to downgrade from TiVo Desktop 2.1 to 2.0 if you installed 2.1 and want to restore your ability to put your media on a device of your choice.

by George Hotelling March 31, 2005 in News, TiVo

Comments

Any word on when they're going to allow the rest of us (mac users, especially) to get this feature?

I'm tired of hearing that Apple isn't working with them, or it's taking too long. If someone can work a backend into iTunes, then they can get video onto a mac.

Posted by: regan at Mar 31, 2005 1:00:47 PM

I have a tivo and a pc running BeyondTV 3.52. My pc's encoder is a Hauppauge PVR-250. Tivo records everything in best quality. I have recorded the same show on both the Tivo and BTV. I must admit that the quality of the BTV (also recorded at best quality)is far superior to the TivoTogo files. That said the BTV files are about three times the size of the Tivo files). Not sure this addresses the article here just thought to mention if anyone else has experienced this?

Posted by: Jeff N at Mar 31, 2005 2:07:32 PM

"So this "upgrade" removes my ability to strip the DRM on .tivo files so that I can watch _my_ .tivo files on _my_ mac laptop?"

BFD !!

DRM _IS_ annoying - I don't think anybody is going to argue about that. The way I look at is - "am I better off without TTG, or with TTG+DRM ?" In my case, the answer is that TTG+DRM allows me to do certain things (eg record TV programs to DVD) that were not possible without TTG. So overall, I am happier as a consumer.

You need to realize that there is simply no way that TIVO can provide a TTG-like feature _WITHOUT_ DRM - they will simply get their asses sued off by the TV/Movie industry, and that is surely not going to be good for either Tivo (or Tivo subscribers like you).
So please stop whining about DRM ...

If you really hate Tivo so much because of their DRM, then maybe you should stop using / subscribing to Tivo. But you won't do that, will you .. ?

Posted by: S Daas at Mar 31, 2005 2:20:32 PM

i agree with S Daas

Posted by: ted at Mar 31, 2005 2:53:30 PM

of course you could always build / hire someone to build you a MythTV box.

just another alternative.

I know it's not a TiVo, but it *is* a valid alternative if you are truly passionate about controlling your environment.

The point is that there are choices out there. Granted, MythTv wouldn't pass the grandmother test, but it *is* a choice.

Posted by: ironmonkey at Mar 31, 2005 2:58:15 PM

"i agree with S Daas"

Ditto.

DRM is annoying, but let's be realistic; this thing is now on a PC. It is only a matter of time before it is hacked.

TiVo is legally covered, those who want to get around the DRM will do so, the rest of us won't even notice, and life will go on.

Posted by: David Deane at Mar 31, 2005 3:54:51 PM

"You need to realize that there is simply no way that TIVO can provide a TTG-like feature _WITHOUT_ DRM - they will simply get their asses sued off by the TV/Movie industry"

That's a sad state of US legal affairs, isn't it?

I can video tape any show, and import that show on a cheap video card, without DRM. Why should a TiVo box I paid for and pay monthly for be programmed to let me do less with the files in my own home?

With the new upgrade, you can't strip DRM at this point, and if you have a mac or unsupported personal video player, you're not allowed to view shows. That sucks.

I'm tired of hearing everyone go to the automatic position that big hollywood is right and we should assume people get sued, etc. We're talking about shows you've recorded at home that you want to watch on other devices. Sure, a tiny minority of jerks might trade them online, but I would argue if TTG had no DRM of any kind, that 99% of users would use the files for legitimate means. They would burn shows to DVD for safe keeping. They would move shows onto laptops, handhelds, and maybe even a Playstation Portable.

They wouldn't be helping folks spread them online or try selling shows on discs. I think the assumed evil in TiVo customers is totally unfair and unrealistic.

Posted by: Matt Haughey at Mar 31, 2005 4:22:21 PM

Matt -

I think your argument that 99% of users would use the files for legitimate reasons is complete crap.

Furthermore, your assumed "good" in Tivo customers is unrealistic.

Get real. These files get out unrestricted and all of the sudden people are sharing/emailing/etc them all over the place. People dont like that, it is called "stealing" (see mp3's). Generally stealing is considered not "good" and ultimately someone will have to pay. Tivo does not want people stealing nor do they want to pay for enabling them to be stolen.

Posted by: Tyson at Mar 31, 2005 5:41:07 PM

Engadget? Are you kidding? Why in the world would you quote an outfit that posted the ludicrious "Tivo Death Watch" junk only weeks before Tivo signed a deal with Comcast? Engadget has been totally discredited; the sooner its owner and his 386 computer go belly-up, the better!

Posted by: Ensign at Mar 31, 2005 8:05:04 PM

How am I stealing something I've paid for, three times over! I pay taxes which go to subsidize public airwaves, I pay my cable bill to have the show delivered (because the airwaves aren't a great way of delivery), and I pay a TiVo subscription to have the ability to timeshift/record/transport my shows. What exactly is the theft here?
Further, if my giving a burned copy of a show to a friend or family member is this so-called crime, then what about the advertisements. Don't you think the networks want as many people to see those as possible? That's how they make their money, and if they can claim that only more people are watching the show than tuned in for the first broadcast, then it's only more money for them. Further, I never paid the content owner for any of this (the studio), but that can't be your claim of theft, since I didn't pay them anything long before I owned a TiVo.
The fact is, no one can claim that most TiVo owners are stealing or not stealing anything. No one knows. I tend to agree with Matt, since I also believe we're all innocent until proven guilty. I own a car that could be used to aide in bank robbery, but no one should take my license to drive because of it. Just because I could steal a television broadcast, doesn't mean I shouldn't have the ability to legitimately watch it when and where I want to.
Say, isn't the US Supreme Court looking into all this?

Posted by: Jason Coleman at Mar 31, 2005 8:06:17 PM

There are more than a few problems with DRM and DRM with TivoToGO... Matt's 99% honest user figure is pretty close to the mark I think.

DRM seems to only stop honest users from performing actions previously allowed as "fair use", but does nothing to actually slow down actual pirates. True pirates and TV rip distro groups don't use their TiVo to rip stuff anyways. They rip from the actual network satellite transmission feeds or DTV broadcasts...

Just the other day, I tried to use tivotogo and the Sonic myDVD tivo suite on trial to burn "the contender" for a friend who missed it. I dutifily typed in my t2g password, it transcoded for hours (which drives me nuts) and then "unknown error" bork/coaster... I took an unDRM'd MPEG2 off my SageTV box and it burned it without issue. Both are mpeg2 files, but only the DRM one locks me into a specific buggy DVD burning software platform.

The other crappy part about DRM is that it's not a static agreement between consumer and content provider... i.e. the rules of what I can and can't do with the content can and do change. A program that I could burn to DVD today (if the damn software didn't crash) I may not have the DRM'd ability to the next day. The same thin happens with my itunes. Apple changed the "rules" after I "purchased" my songs. I used to be able to burn the same playlist 10 times, it's now 8 or less. (which is plenty, but why did I lose ground? who's bargaining on my behalf?)

*shrug* I'm just rambling now but my main point is that DRM just gets in the way of average users fair use(s), and does little to nothing to stop actual pirates from distributing their warez.

I'm glad I saw Matt's post before going to grab the latest T2G beta.

rampy

Posted by: rampy at Mar 31, 2005 8:31:26 PM

"These files get out unrestricted and all of the sudden people are sharing/emailing/etc them all over the place. People dont like that, it is called "stealing""

Here's the thing Tyson, the folks that want to do that type of stuff already have the files, already upload them and already "steal" them for others.

You call my 99% of users honest figure BS but you come back with some inherent evil you believe is in everyone. People wouldn't "email video all over the place" because it's ridiculous to email a 500-1000Mb file. They may in fact "share them all over the place" with their friends, on DVD, just as they would with TTG2 as they would without.

The TTG DRM blocks everyone, including the 99% of folks that aren't going to do anything nefarious, from copying their shows to a DVD using *any* DVD software and not just the expensive approved Sonic software. They might also load the video onto a mac laptop of theirs that can't currently play them. They might create a version for their PDA. Where's the harm in that? Shouldn't you be allowed to do what you want in your own home with your own technology products?

Seriously, the "evil" folks that do stealing already do stealing with or without DRM, it has no effect on their activities. What it does do instead is punish everyone else when they suddenly are told by their computer that they're not allowed to do something innocuous like use a DVD burning program they are comfortable with, and instead they are told they must buy the expensive new DVD software that is approved for use.

DRM doesn't stop crackers and piracy, it just ends up getting in the way of what regular folks want to do with their files, stuff that is perfectly legit, legal, and harmless to the TV studios.

I suggest everyone that is rallying around TiVo's DRM to check out one person's experiences with the last ten years of DRM:

http://junk.haughey.com/doctorow-drm-ms.html

Posted by: Matt Haughey at Mar 31, 2005 8:41:42 PM

You can't steal something that was broadcast for free. *yeash*

Anyway everything is already out there DRMing on the Tivo to go end means nothing. This is just Tivo doing it's usual belly flop dance to placated the media powers at the expensive of their real customers.

Posted by: Griffon at Mar 31, 2005 9:20:37 PM

Yeah, this stinks.

I don't think Tivo is afraid of being sued by TV/Movie manufacturers, I think they just feel like they need those relationships to stay (get) profitable. Banner ads and pushed content is the future of Tivo, and TTG, commercial stripping/skipping is going to remain hobbled and inconvenient.
Bottom line, if you NEED to store content, don't bother with TIVO. Get your own DVR built and just use TIVO for stuff you don't want to keep.

DRM is a joke. Unfortunately the joke is on us.

Posted by: Norm at Apr 1, 2005 7:31:34 AM

How are you watching .tivo files on your Mac?

Posted by: Mark at Apr 1, 2005 8:35:42 AM

Mark - I strip the DRM from the file using the process outlined at http://www.evillabs.net/tivo/ and a Windows system. Then copy them to my PowerBook for when I want to watch a show away from my TV. Isn't that what TiVoToGo was designed to allow me to do?

Posted by: George Hotelling at Apr 1, 2005 8:48:21 AM

While you guys are complaining about DRM, look what Time Warner customers have to look forward to (from Newsday):

Cablevision and Time Warner Cable are preparing to offer DVR-like services without the DVR box, executives of the two cable TV companies said yesterday.

Time Warner Cable would allow viewers to start an individual TV show over from the beginning, as long as the viewer presses a "start over" button before the program is over.

Time Warner Cable's service would DISABLE the fast-forward feature so viewers could NOT skip past commercials. That's partly to avoid complaints from the TV channels on which the programs air, Time Warner Cable chief executive Glenn Britt said. The service would work only for programs that programmers have agreed to include.

The article goes on to say:
One of the problems with DVR boxes, in addition to the initial cost, is that "hard drives fail," and have to be replaced eventually, Britt said.
+++++++
From my perspective, this strategy implies that the DVR business model is unfeasible for the cable service providers.

Ive always thought the model of giving away the faulty Scientific Atlanta DVRs and then replacing them at no additional cost was not economically feasible.

Posted by: New York at Apr 1, 2005 7:44:35 PM

This is ridiculous and will make a MythTV user out of me at long last. I wait two years for TivoToGo and it's this bad?

Those saying this is stealing, I refer to:
http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/betamax/

Posted by: Bigoldgeek at Apr 14, 2005 12:55:56 PM

Heh. Just get a ReplayTV and stop bitching...

// flame ON! :)

Posted by: cparker at Apr 15, 2005 9:55:36 AM

I am so glad I read through this blog before I installed the new Tivo software and crimped my system further.

I think it's getting to be about the time where I visit my Tivo with a screwdriver and *fix* some of these issues.

DRM sucks.

Posted by: George at May 3, 2005 12:57:14 AM

Why wait for Tivo to 'give' Mac users the feature--hackers have already figured out how to modify version 4.01b of the Tivo software to allow transport of the mpeg-2 streams from series 1, series 2 and DirectTV-Tivo boxes to any platform via ftp. That includes the Macintosh under OS X 10.3 and 10.4, as well as Linux and Windows. The MPEG-2 streams can then be shown using mplayer or vlc on the Mac. Details and pointers to How-To guides are available from the discussions threads on the Deal Database forum. I don't know that anyone has worked out a clean way to move the recorded MPEG-2 streams off to a HD DVD yet, but I expect that will happen too.

In short, why beg Tivo to do something when the software is already available and free?

Posted by: sparx at Jul 1, 2005 11:17:17 AM

Nice to see apologist sheep like Matt support the intentional crippling of stuff that you bought with the understanding that it you know, have features that wouldn't be turned off.
I love his YUO ARE TEH STEALINGS TEH MP3S AND ARE TEH PIR8S WHO SPREAD FILES ON TEH INTARWEB OMG!!!11!! bit too.
Yes, Matt, everyone out there is bad and will do dishonest, dirty things like *gasp* give a copy of a show to their neighbors? Or let their kids watch the show on their macs? OH NO! THE HUMANITY!
*sigh*

Posted by: loraksus at Sep 19, 2005 3:13:58 PM

Engadget plays with TiVo Desktop 2.1 Beta

Comments

Post a Comment

On this site

Recent Comments

Advertising