TiVo to add banner ads to service when fast forwarding

So here it is, the story I hinted at earlier (which went to press a night early): TiVo Is No Longer Skipping Past Advertisers.

Coming soon to the standalone TiVo OS: when you hit fast forward to skip past commercials, small banner ads will show up on your screen. You'll be able to click them to get more info, see an informercial, or send your home address details to get more info about a product mailed to you.

I think this is a dark day for TiVo, and this new feature is aimed at pleasing TV Networks and advertisers. I doubt a single customer would ever ask for this kind of feature, and that it happens while you skip commercials just drives the point home. TiVo is no longer TV your way, it's TV their way.

People get TiVos for different reasons, mostly it's for the time shifting nature, but the close second most loved feature has to be the ability to fast forward through ads. The advertising TiVo has added so far has been minimal impact. The commercial showcases that show up on your main menu aren't that bad and often have good ad shorts and information, but pushing that into the main TV watching interface seems like a spectacularly bad move. No longer are the ads an optional thing you can dig for more, they're soon going to be pushed in front of you when you use a key feature of the product.

Now, I haven't seen any actual demos of it in action, and this comment from earlier today claims to be from a TiVo employee and says it'll be tasteful and unobtrusive, but I have a feeling this is a bad precident and it'll get uglier as companies pay more for the primo space.

Also on the horizon: plans to enable purchases via your remote (fine by me, if you're really interested, why not make it easy to buy), and someday letting networks and ad agencies mine the data on tivo use, which I also think is a fine idea if it means better shows and better advertising. But overall, I'm not happy to hear the fast forward button was sold to advertisers today. That was the killer feature for so many, and to see it changed to force ads on customers isn't going to make those customers happy.

Comments

[MegaZone]

This is no big deal. So there are pop-ups when you FFW through ads - and? It doesn't stop you from using FFW and it doesn't stop you from using 30 second skip and not even seeing them.

Personally I welcome this. If advertisers embrace this they have less reason to resist the advance of technology. They've been upset about ad-skipping and have tried to fight it at every turn. With a viable alternative they have no reason to fight to preserve the old system.

TiVo is a business, they have to turn a profit to remain a going concern. If they can make money from something as unobtrusive as this, I hope they can do more of the same.

I don't think this is 'aimed at pleasing TV Networks and advertisers' as much as it is aimed at making a profit and keeping TiVo in business - without being invasive to the user experience.

Judging from the responses on your last entry, and from responses on the TiVoLovers LJ (http://www.livejournal.com/community/tivolovers/) it seems like other users don't think this is a big deal either.

If they'd stopped people from skipping ads, or did something to force feed ads outside of a program, etc, that would've been bad news. This - this just doesn't seen consequential.

[Matt Haughey]

It seems like a really big deal to me because they decided to add the new ads __while you are skipping ads__. That seems like a feature that flies in the face of customers.

Why be hostile to your core users? Imagine if Microsoft, when releasing the new Internet Explorer with popup-blocking, would instead popup ads for Microsoft-friendly companies? Or what if Mozilla suddenly added the same feature after being around for years without it?

[mrpull]

Once again the standalone tivos get a feature and the DTivos get left out again....oh wait...nevermind.

anyhow... it sounds a lot like the old thumbs up on ads of the past. are they bigger?

non-issue, move on.

mr.

[MegaZone]

So use 30 second skip.

You're in FFW, the screen is just a jumble. And it only happens during FFW over ads - not in the program. So you FFW over an add for the new Nissan and while the 30 second spot flashes by in a second you get a little pop-up saying "The new Nissan Pathfinder" with a picture or something. If you want to see more you hit Thumbs Up. That's so bad? They've already had TiVoMatic pop-ups in ads and promos for ages and the majority of users never cared about them.

The fact is if you use FFW you're not skipping anything, you're just speeding it up. So instead of a blipvert you'll see a static image of the product in the corner. That seems very unobtrusive to me. And I don't buy the slippery slope argument. People have been saying for years that TiVo would force feed ads - and at every turn they've deliberately avoided doing so.

As I've seen other comment, if they were doing ad pop-ups over the program, that'd be across the line. But a still ad for the product being FFW'd through - hardly an Axis of Evil.

And if it keeps advertises from trying to insist we not be allowed to skip their ads - I say bring it on.

[Mike Steinbaugh]

It's the beginning of the end for TiVo. I'm sticking with getting my shows off BitTorrent for now. Until somebody comes up with a stand-alone set top box, PVRs aren't going to sucker me in.

[Matt Haughey]

It sounds like the ads will be within the interface, so any time you fast forward something, you'll get a graphic and I'm guessing a "thumbs up for more info". So yeah, it'll be like the thumbs up during ads, but worse in my opinion, because it'll show up in the interface any time you FF.

[Matt Haughey]

I don't buy the "this is no big deal" arguments because this is the first thing that feels like force feeding ads to me. I remember how much I hated Comcast cable, because every time I brought up the show info screen, ads for TV Guide and other Comcast advertisers would cover 1/3 of the screen. If the top blue bar is for sale to the highest bidder, how long until TiVo's interface is as annoying as Comcast's?

[regan]

I've been a faithful tivo advocate and customer for several years. Think I'm going to reserve judgement on this until I see it in action or some screenshots. To be honest, the ads on tivo are typically above average and of things i might actually be interested in viewing. So maybe, just maybe, this won't be a customer killer.

I do agree, this is not good, because it has nothing to do with the consumer. It's solely aimed at profit-margins, which is fine, but it won't gain them any new customers. I just think that their effort could have been better used on other features.

But Matt is right, this could be the start of the death spiral.

[MegaZone]

"so any time you fast forward something"

Only when you FF over an ad, and only if that ad has the flags to bring up a banner. Just like TiVoMatic only brings up a thumb over flagged ads and promos.

[MegaZone]

"But Matt is right, this could be the start of the death spiral."

People said that when they introduced the Gold Star ads in TiVo Central. People said that about promos. People said that when they settled the lawsuit with TV Guide and started putting TV Guides logo on screens, and including them in showcases.

Every time TiVo does something that isn't some new whizbang feature for the end user people cry foul. Well, they're a business, and they're not going to be profitable on subscriptions alone - not without charging a lot more. I'm not going to believe they'll ever be 100% ad supported - like the dotbomb pipe dream - but if it can help their balance sheet and maybe drive down consumer costs somewhat over time, I'm all for it.

As I said, I think this is a good thing for the consumer, because TiVo isn't just taking away existing marketing vehicles, they're providing alternatives. If something this reasonable can keep advertisers happy, then they may stop fighting the advance of consumer technology and learn to embrace the new forms of media. I wouldn't mind ads so much if I cared about more than 1% of the crap they try to sell me. That's why I like Showcases, I watch the ones that sound interesting. And a little graphic on screen while I FF isn't going to bug me. If I care, maybe I'll stop and check it out (I already do that with 30 second skip if a glimpse of an ads catches my eye), otherwise it is gone in a second anyway.

People have to realize TiVo has to do things to keep *both* sides happy. Unless you'd like to see them go the way of ReplayTV - clashing horns with the big boys head on, and losing. RTV has really been putting out new hardware and software since DNNA took over, right?

TiVo isn't trying to start a crusade - they're subverting the existing paradigm more subtlely. Taking small steps one at a time, letting the industry adjust before taking the next. Instead of trying to do it all at once and spooking the cattle into a legal stampede.

TiVo is slowly changing the way media is delivered. With deliberate, calculated moves. It think they've done a good job so far, and I don't think their track record warrants leaping to conclusions about pending disaster.

[Matt Haughey]

I never said it would be a death spiral, but it certainly is a sucky moment. I never thought the commercial showcases were the end of TiVo as many TiVo fans claimed, but this one definitely has a stink about it that goes beyond minor annoyance.

[adm]

I'm with you, Matt. It's a bad, bad sign. The function itself may not be the worst thing in the world, but it's a clear indicator of shifting allegiances.

MegaZone's comment above about "people said that when..." just seems to underscore the point s/he's trying to refute. We're the lobster in the pot, and the water is getting warmer and warmer.

I love my Tivo, but am becoming increasingly concerned by the corporate and political pressures that are being brought to bear on the company. It's getting to be time that all of us in Tivo-land hedge our bets and add a broadcast-flag-immune hdtv card and a copy of MythTV to our DRM Emergency Ready Kits.

[andi]

Tivo is a business. Their allegiance is to the success of their business.

They're doing something with minimal impact on users to increase their liklihood of staying in business. Not a bad idea for us or them.

Skipping commercials minimizes the time you spend not watching what you want to watch. As far as I can tell, nothing's changed.

[Abby]

This SUCKS! That's half of the reason I bought a TiVo! I just went all over the TiVo web site to write a letter of complaint, but there isn't an obvious place to do that. Any suggestions?

[Brian]

Will us lucky Series1 owners get lucky and get this "feature"?

[mangler103]

How many people actually stare at the screen while FF'ing anyway? I certainly don't. I just look for the show to pop back up then hit play. You guys are overreacting. This is nothing.

Now if they disabled the FF feature altogether, or forced us to watch 5 minutes of unskippable ads before we were allowed to watch a show, that would be something to get excited over, and if that happens, I'll be the first to lead the charge against it. But if you're asking me to get excited over popup ads on a screen that I'm not watching anyway, I'm just not buying it.

I agree with Megazone, this is actually a good thing for the company. They've always been the DVR that's friendliest to the big television companies, and trying to subvert them was what killed Replay TV. Tivo is playing nice while doing their best to keep the ads subtle and out of the way. It could be a lot worse.

It's still TV my way. There's nothing that I could do on my Tivo before that I can't do with this new feature.

[Chris]

/Personally I welcome this. If advertisers embrace this they have less reason to resist the advance of technology. They've been upset about ad-skipping and have tried to fight it at every turn. With a viable alternative they have no reason to fight to preserve the old system./

I pay $40 a month for cable. If I was relying on broadcast television, then advertisers might have a point. But given that I'm paying for my television - precisely so that I can Tivo it and avoid ads - I don't see why others doing the same should give a d**n about advertisers.

As others are saying, this in itself is not a big deal. However, Matt is right with respect to worrying about the trend. How much Tivo developer time was spent on this feature that could have been improving the product for those of us actually sending Tivo the bulk of its revenue? Tivo worries about staying in the black. I wonder if they would still be worrying if they continued to innovate and were not hawking a stale and increasingly dated product. I look at MSFT's offerings, and despite my MSFT misgivings, I'm starting to grow envious. Not because of ad-friendly technology, but because of things like MSFT providing SDKs for developers to write applications that run on the Media Center platform, things like cheap media extenders, and things like working with hardware manufacturers to enable portable video.

How much of this could Tivo have accomplished had they been worrying about improving the end-user experience and not pissing their pants about what the NFL or advertisers were going to do to them via lawsuit? At some point, Tivo needed to say "Go to hell, and I'll see you in court." At one point, Tivo was the choice for early adopters and those interested in an innovative and user-centric experience. Now, they're a has-been.

(If any Tivo employees are reading this and I've hurt your feelings, tough. I'm one of those famous types of people who couldn't shut up about their Tivos and how everyone should get one. If asked now, I'm just as likely to tell people not to bother and get a Comcast PVR.)

[TiVoDoughBoy]

I'm coming down on the side that this itself not being a big deal, but there's the potential for it being a slippery slope. As said before, though, this isn't a precedent; it's the same "technology" as the TiVoMatic pop-ups. But, like the TiVoMatic pop-ups during ads and promos, it's not a far jump to see product placements in the content itself trigger and ad: "press thumbs-up to drink Pepsi just like Detective Sipowicz." I guess just stay tuned to see where it goes.

[mangler103]

If Tivo had said "Go to hell, and I'll see you in court." as you suggested, they'd be right where ReplayTV is.

If that's a good thing or a bad thing, I guess depends on your perspective.

[Slack]

They will HAVE to disable the 30 second quick skip hack to make this fly.

Lovin' my ReplayTVs even more.

[Lampy]

Well,

That just make me happy that I stacked my 2 Series One Tivos in the garage.

Now to see if they add this "Feature" to DirecTivo. If so they will have successfully pried it from my cold, dead hands.

Time to build your own PVR.

I was hoping to give up TV anyway.

[~bc]

I support this only if it lowers the cost of subscription. I bought a Toshiba Home Media Server (Series 11, 80hr, DVD player) which has the TiVO Basic subscription, and paid about $400. I take offense that after spending that much money, that I'd have to jack over another $300 for a subscription that doesn't stick with me, but is married to the TiVO (they don't want us to buy more TiVOs? Hello, upgrades!). So for the last year, I've stuck with the basic abilities, which is fine, but certainly not as useful as the full abilities. But full TiVO is just not worth $700. That's F*n ridiculous.

I also agree its a slippery slope. It's definitely time to buy HD cards for your computer before broadcast flag. You may need it to build your own DVR in the near future.

[Chris]

/If Tivo had said "Go to hell, and I'll see you in court." as you suggested, they'd be right where ReplayTV is./

I disagree and here's why. As I understand it, Replay was not sued for it's commercial skipping, but rather because it was allowing the video to be transfered from the box and onto the web. With respect to showing that they are making a good-faith effort to not allow this to happen, Tivo has been an outstanding citizen. However, in their cowardice to not deal with a ReplayTV-type lawsuit, Tivo has consistently given ground on what is acceptable behavior for users of their devices.

My "go to court" comment is focused on the idea that content-providers will always try to lock down the content and dictate how and when it may be consumed. At some point, Tivo needed to say "we're not giving any more - what we're doing is acceptable under time shifting and fair use standards" and defend that point of view in a court in order to establish and strengthen precedent that devices like Tivo can be made to serve the content consumers' needs even if the producers of the content disagree. However, what they're doing now is not standing up and giving up inch by inch. Does anyone here think that the agreement reached by Tivo and the NFL is in any consistent with the jurisprudence established under fair use and Sony v. Universal Studios? I don't, and Tivo's constant ceding of these things are establishing precedents that producers can point to later on to justify similarly expansive actions.

The end result is that the only people capable of making PVRs that are user-centric and not beefed up cable set top boxes are those with the clout to stand up to the content producers, such as Microsoft. MSFT will be able to innovate unhindered while Tivo slips into irrelevance because of ReplayTV-type lawsuits.

[Chris]

Err. amend the last line of my post above:

"irrelevance because of ReplayTV-type lawsuits"

to be

"irrelevance because of fear of ReplayTV-type lawsuits"

[Matt Haughey]

It seems like this will open TiVo up to the same early lawsuits the web spawned. The first time a banner ad for Coca Cola shows up over a Pepsi ad, there will definitely be lawsuits happening.

[kael]

This is just the next step in the ad war. After this we'll see more ads during the frickin' show (I really really really hate that!).

The thing is, the entire TV "system" is built on ad-supported programming. Without addressing this key point, it's either get off the see-saw or get used to the up and down.

[Ruidh]

Well, it just confirms my decision to buy the new Sony HDTV DVR when it ships next month. Thanks, TiVo. It's been fun.

[Tom Harpel]

I don't know what I'm paying for anymore. I bought my iPod and I own it, but with software updates, Apple is free to change how I use that iPod and to remove functionality at any time.

Same goes for TiVo. They can push down updates and changes how the TiVo works without an opt out. How long before they silently update my TiVoOS overnight so that the 30 second hack breaks?

I'm starting to think that networked devices will all suck for this reason. You buy them because you like the deal they offer. A year down the road, the manufacturer can change the deal on you and all of a sudden, you have a fundamentally different user experience.

(Me, not my employer, saying all of this, etc. bla bla.)

[George Hotelling]

MegaZone wins points for using the word "blipvert."

Chris wins the round for pointing out that Microsoft's PVR doesn't seem to need to suck up to the content industries. Stop defending TiVo for siding with Big Copyright over its own users, they do so of their own volition.

[janiqua]

Yeah, this is definitely interesting. If you all want to have a little more info on this, try out www.payfornothing.com and respond back.

[Brian W]

"It seems like this will open TiVo up to the same early lawsuits the web spawned. The first time a banner ad for Coca Cola shows up over a Pepsi ad, there will definitely be lawsuits happening."

As far as I can tell from the article, these banner ads appear *in the place of the "thumbs up" icon* for companies that pay to add them. It would be a Coca Cola banner appear over a Coca Cola commercial, not "competing" advertising.

Should someone be complaining about the fact that there are 18 minutes of commercials in every "hour" long show? Surely that's far more annoying and insidious for the 96% of people who don't even have DVRs?

[Aaron]

Frankly, I think it's a lousy idea. We are berrated with advertising EVERYWHERE now. They are on the freakin' floor of the grocery store and on the carts and plastered on full-priced DVDs I buy with increasingly limited abilities to skip them before I get to the content I PAID for.

Tivo has been one of those places where I still felt somewhat empowered to actually avoid some advertising and just focus on the content. Now that, too, is getting visual pollution.

I'm just sorry Tivo is compelled in this world to have to do these things to stay alive - if that truly is the case. Not to blow this too much out of proportion, but it's a sad commentary on the bigger picture of our society, business practices, and overwhelmingly pervasive greed. Each little thing like this gets quickly set aside as "not a big deal" - but the steady drip, drip, drip of these little changes makes for a much bigger problem.

Sad.

[AndyZib]

Good for TiVo for using their technology for profit. Isn't that the point of going into business?

Take a moment to think about it:

* TV stations are happy because advertisers want to buy longer ad slots in order to increase the time their bill board is on the screen during a TiVo fast forward.
* Advertisers are happy because they have a captive audience for their ads. (you actually have to attentively watch the screen or you'll fast forward into your show)
* TiVo is happy because they have another revenue source.
* TiVo owners are still happy because they are still getting through commercials at the same rate as they did before TiVo added this feature.

Who exactly is loosing?

[JW]

I only wonder if they'll use the money they make off the ads to defray the monthly cost of subsription.

They can charge us, or they can charge the advertisers. Charging us AND making us watch ads seems a little greedy.

[Don]

Let me get this straight. They plan to let 4 year olds buy things with the TV remote?! As someone stuck with a life time subscription all I can say is sign me up for the class action suit.

[p-dog]

I view Tivo as a place with some brilliant usability designers, who are lost at a company with management that just doesn't get it. How Tivo can have over 1mm subscribers and not be profitable is beyond me.

Two Tivo features all us customers really want:
-- an HDTV tivo
-- two tuners

Instead of this, we get the idiotic home media features that no one really wanted, and now ads that no one really wants.

Tivo won't have to care much about what the TV industry thinks if their customers go away. Comcast is just about to offer me a set-top DVR that looks like it will be better than Tivo ...

[Fazal Majid]

I am always amused by the cognitive dissonance shown by TiVo boosters who defend the company no matter what it does. I got rid of my TiVo when they first started putting advertising in the UI a year ago. This is the kind of thing you can expect when users don't stick to a zero-tolerance policy towards conflicts of interest from their suppliers.

[Michael]

/As I understand it, Replay was not sued for it's commercial skipping, but rather because it was allowing the video to be transfered from the box and onto the web./

Actually, the suit was for both of those things. Most people figured that the only legally viable claim was the file sharing one, and that the commercial skipping claim had no basis in law. On the other hand, since virtually nobody (except for all of you geniuses I'm sure) figured out how to get Replay to actually share anything, it was obvious that file sharing was not the REAL motivation -- it was the commercial skipping. Denon fell right into the strategy, giving up the claim it could have probably won (commercial skipping) in order to get out of the claim it would have probably lost (file sharing). In a Machievelian way, I must admire the strategy used by the copyright owners -- they really finnessed that one well, and too bad for all of us who were the victims of that finesse.

--
A former Replay user, now wondering how long the TIVO ride will last...

[Erik Lane]

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I guess from the business standpoint it's good for TiVo and at the same time if it keeps them in business it's good for us end-users too.

I mean how much advertising can they give us while in super FF mode? I already miss the ones on the TV why wouldn't I ignore these new ones too? The only issue I would have is if they slow down the FF speed to basically make me view the commercial or somehow make it more difficult for me to see the screen while FF'ing so I know when to stop so I can resume watching my TiVo'd show.

[CMSTech]

JW, I agree 100%, put me on the list! I have a lifetime sub too and if they even have one ad during FF, I will hack the hell out of my Tivo not to display them. I already got rid of all the ads in the UI and it didn't take much hacking at all.

[otto]

i guess i will miss out since i use my TiVo in dumb mode..... part of the reason is that literally days after ordering a TiVo i found out i was a few months away from being offered a PVR cablebox for $9/month. honestly, as much as i thnk it sucks, TiVo is heading for trouble anyway..... Comcast and TimeWarner and whatever other cable companies are slowly adding PVR features to their digital cable boxes. last i read they charge $9/month to upgrade to a PVR box. yeah you can not hack it, but when you are already paying for the scheduling grid as part of your cable, it does seem silly to also buy the feed from TiVo. the all in one box is going to win a lot of people over that either need to replace a TiVo or have not yet bought one. it seems they are losing a lot of ground in an industry they pretty much created. i know for a fact that Miscr$oft is behind a lot of this. there have been a few recent articles about M$ signing deals with huge cable companies (Comcast etc) to provide the software for cable boxes and integrated PVRs and they will use the M$ DRM software.... UGH!
good luck TiVo..... i hope you can beat this somehow.....

[Scott Shinn]

Tivo has jumped the shark!

[MegaZone]

Just to note, ReplayTV was sued over two issues - Send Show and Commercial Advance.

A lot of the comments here seem to reflect a closed-mindedness to the realities of business. How much engineering effort do you think it took to add this? I doubt it took a great deal of work since the underlying technology was already in the units. It is just a new application, and extension, of TiVoMatic. And it sounds like they can make good revenue off of this - that means a high ROI. And Return On Investment is what drives efforts. I bet this has a higher ROI, and certainly in the short term, then trying to do HDTV or dual tuners.

How many average consumers are *really* willing to spend more to have dual tuners? I'm not even sure that *I* am, and I spent $1700 on my first LD/DVD/CD deck because I was an early adopter. I also spent over a grand on my 4th TiVo - a Pioneer 810H - between HW and lifetime. Personally I'd rather have cooperative scheduling between the units I have in different rooms than multiple tuners in one room. Conflicts rarely happen for me since I watch mainly cable programming that repeats several times in a week, if not in a day.

Anyway... As far as dual tuners and HDTV goes, there are strong indications that TiVo *is* working on such things. Read the FCC rule making on CableCARD and note the comments made by TiVo that were included. It has also been mentioned in the past couple quarterly conference calls. I think we'll probably see something at CES2005. But CableCARD and HDTV are longer term investments. I probably would be willing to pay for CableCARD.

TiVo has done engineering in other areas - integrating DVD playback and recording. Developing new, lower cost reference platforms for the new standalone *and* DirecTV models. This lowest the cost to TiVo on the HW, helping their bottom line. TiVoToGo should be out in a month or so, and that's a major improvement for consumers, IMHO.

IIRC, I think it was Mike Ramsey who recently said he expects TiVo to shift to a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 revenue model between subscriptions, licensing, and advertising/demographic revenue. It isn't a matter of "They can sharge subscriptions *or* sell advertising" - neither one is going to keep the ship afloat alone. The only reason the HW is so cheap now is that they take a bath on every sale. And they don't want to raise subscriptions - TiVo has said a number of times they'd like to lower consumer costs - so other sources of revenue are important to the company.

If you're so annoyed by, frankly, inconsequential things like this - then build a MythTV or FreeVo box, or just stop watching TV. TiVo obviously isn't meant for you - frankly it probably isn't really targetted at anyone reading this. TiVo is targetting middle America - Joe and Jane Average. Not the geeks, not the privacy zealots. They really don't care if we pack up and leave and start MythTV communes.

If you really think the cable DVRs are better, I have to wonder if you've ever used them - or ask for some of what you're smoking. The only one I've seen out there that looks like it could give TiVo a decent run for the money is Digeo/Moxi - but they're in limited deployment. I've seen the basic Motorola units and they're junk, IMHO. I've tried to use the SA8000 and it was perhaps the worst piece of shit I have ever experienced in consumer electronics. (My parents, unfortunately, have one because their cable company told them it was 'like TiVo'. It sucks so bad now they think all DVRs must be equally as bad and they gave up on it.)

Frankly I don't see a conflict of interest. I just don't care. Nothing TiVo has done has bothered me. (OK, nothing TiVo has done in this context. I really, really think they're long overdue to drop the POTS requirement for setup and support networking out of the box. And with networks playing games I think negative and soft padding options are needed badly.) I actually *like* many of the Gold Star items - especially the movie previews. I would love to see more things like the BMW Films too. When they have a promo I don't care about - like Bridget Jobes - I don't watch them. It really is that simple. I rarely bother to look in the Showcases menu.

TiVo has deliberately avoided things they could easily implement but that would lessen the user experience. It wouldn't be hard to do what ReplayTV used to do and run full screen ads when paused, etc. Or do interstitial ads in the menus for screen transitions, etc. But they've always gone the least obtrusive route.

Microsoft has also clearly sided with the content providers, don't be silly and think they haven't. Microsoft is pushing *hard* to get their codecs and DRM technologies used by the entertainment industry. (And it is working - VC-1 was adopted by both Blu-ray and HD-DVD.) DRM10 is all about keeping a lock on the content to limit what you can do with it. Microsoft is desperate to finally break into the STB market and have gone on record as saying they'll do whatever it takes to make the cable networks happy to get them to use MS software. MS also has very, very deep pockets. Even the RIAA and MPAA think twice before threatening a lawsuit against MS. TiVo doesn't have the luxury of a bottomless war chest. They don't even have to lose the suit - RTV didn't lose, they ran out of money during the fight and the new owners caved to avoid being sued as well.

That's an unfortunate business reality. TiVo can't afford to get into to many faces. They have to be diplomatic - and so far it has worked. They've said their approach is to take it step by step. First you get approval for limited show sharing, which they've received. Once you can show that it doesn't lead to the fall of Western Civilization, you expand the capabilities. Let the content providers adjust and learn that TiVo isn't going to put them out of business, and they'll allow the evolution. Spook them into being reactionary and they can bleed TiVo dry in court.

I also find it amusing that people are jumping to conclusions about what the features will do. Anyone who knows how these things work is certainly under NDA. For those of you who have Tivos, how many of you have ever filled out the beta application? As for the 'couch commerce' - yeah, I really think TiVo would design it so that a 4 year old could buy things. That seems so likely given their track record... C'mon, you know they'll have some kind of parental lock on it - needing a PIN, etc, to make the purchase. They're not *idiots*.

And since TiVo controls who buys the ads and how they appear, I don't see them being stupid enough to allow counter-advertising. Pepsi pop-ups over Coke, etc. That would be inviting lawsuits, as was said, and they're not that dumb.

Maybe we should just relax until the implementation is public and people can see for themselves if it is really the end of the world.

[Linda]

I'm in the "no big deal" camp.

As long as:
1) I can still fast forward at the same speed
2) I can ignore the ads and they will go away when I am finishing fast forwarding
3) and I can still see the program so I know when to stop fast forwarding

... then I don't see how this will negatively affect me as a TiVo user.

I do want them to stay in business. I don't see advertising as the Evil that some do, as long as it's unobtrusive.

The comments on both sides have been interesting and well stated.

[Otis Wildflower]

The day that 30-second skip is disabled is the day I cancel Tivo.

Simple as dat.

[sixtoe]

That's it. I'm-a gonna build my own HD PVR. Soon. Maybe in the spring. And when I save up $700-$1400. Seriously. Just you wait.

[John Onysko]

Combine this with Tivo's recent decision to succumb to Macrovision. Premium content such as HBO and PPV are now at the discretion of the content provider. They get to say if you can record the show, and if so, how long you can keep it on your recorder.

I have been in direct contact with Tivo about this and have e-mails and phone conversation notes if anyone is interested. Frankly, I think it is worthy of a class-action suit. "When I bought my Tivo it could record the Sopranos, now it can't."

[Chris]

MegaZone, you make some good points. In all of this, this new "feature" will do little to degrade the user experience. (I think.) The larger issue that this is but a manifestation of is Tivo deciding to use advertisers as a revenue source. Assuming that Tivo is successful in making advertisers as large a part of their revenue stream as users (as the 1/3 user, 1/3 ads, 1/3 other plan would do), a fundamental conflict will pop up where Tivo will have to choose between ads and its users. Take fast forward, for example. If Tivo gets to the targeted ration of income, and advertisers demand that they get rid of the fast forward functionality as it adversely affects their ads, who is Tivo going to side with? The users are dispersed, uncoordinated, and suffer the handicap of having a degree of lock-in, given their hardware purchases and some lifetime membership fees. In contrast, the advertisers can simply take their business elsewhere - such as the traditional broadcasters and cable operators. Given that Tivo would not lose all the subscribers by such a move, where the advertisers could act as a bloc, Tivo would be forced remove the feature in order to maximize their bottom line and serve their shareholders. Other PVR manufacturers and distributors (MSFT and Comcast in particular) don't have to worry about these things.

In my view, the only Tivo will survive is offering a unique and innovative service in contrast to the cheap PVRs and Windows Media Centers. This can only be done by not becoming beholden to advertisers and offering a product that empowers users on a scale that makes them flock to Tivo's PVR. Once enough users have flocked to the superior product, then perhaps Tivo will have enough clout to not be the whipping boy of the content and advertising industries.

If Tivo is to survive as we know it (a progressive, user-focused company), it has to simply out-innovate the competition and provide a product compelling enough to drive user adoption and perception such that it becomes a player in the industry instead of constantly being on the edge of extinction. Moving to appease advertisers may make sense in a short-term sense, but it would be a disaster in the long term.

IMHO.

[Matt Haughey]

I wish TiVo would have released a screenshot to the press, so we could have seen what it could have looked like, right in the LA Times article.

I have a feeling it probably isn't that bad looking or intrusive, if designed right, but I'm so used to cable company advertising which always seems tacked on and ugly.

I probably wouldn't be so annoyed if I could see it and know that it wasn't too visually invasive on the interface.

[Precision Blogger]

Sounds like a feature to me! There ARE ads I would like to see. The banners will help me notice that I'm skipping one I'd really like to watch.

TV is a wasteland with only a few bits of good stuff here and there. A lot of money and creativity goes into SOME ads, and a few of these are really worth the entertainment value.
- The Precision Blogger
http://precision-blogging.blogspot.com

[WalJ]

Tivo is losing money, this is a chance for them to break even or perhaps make a profit. The few users they lose by this can be compensated by the overall gain. There might be Open Source alternatives, but nothing works as well as Tivo.

If this makes them enough money, they will certainly reduce the price of hardware or subscription services (lowering one will make it easier to get more people to buy Tivo).

[Dave]

I see one issue here that most people seem to be missing. So what that you can still fast forward through the commercials.... as the popup ads get more common, do you really think that there want be changes? Money talks. My bet is that the "fast forward" will one day become a "not quite as fast forward" so more advertisement time can be sold. I was planning until today to buy a Tivo unit. Now I won't. I will say thank you to Tivo for the warning.

[Linda]

Dave, I don't think anyone is missing that issue. That's the whole "slippery slope" argument.

Who knows what will come next. Even if they have to come up with other ways to incorporate advertising, I have to believe they wouldn't do so in a way that is obtrusive or detrimental to the user, such as the "not quite so fast forward" you suggest. If they alienate all the users, they won't get any ad revenue at all. They know that. There are options for the consumer out there, and they know that, too.

I barely even realized there is advertising on the Menu interface, because I never select them. I expect the banners to be much the same.

If I'm wrong and they DO start doing advertising in a way that affects my viewing pleasure, then I will make my voice heard with the rest of you. Or just silently vote with my checkbook.

[Kathy]

Interesting that they announced this just as their $100 rebate promotion has ended. I just got my Tivo because we don't have the time to build a freevo right now.

We watched the gold star promo for Polar Express from start to finish. There has to be a better, more creative way to utilize the technology to comfort advertisers. I'll withhold my complaints until I see this in action, though.

But knowing that many of their users are folks who are technologically savvy enough to build their own should motivate Tivo to put the user experience first.

[Roy]

I hope Asia continues to make VCRs for a loooooong time.

[Aaron]

Who uses the ff button anyway? I've had Tivo since 1999 (have three now) and very rarely use the FF button. Four, Six, or eight clicks of the 30'second button get you through most commercial breaks.

It would take a whole lot more than this to make me give up my Tivo. I'd quit watching TV altogether before I'd give up Tivo.

[MegaZone]

I could build a MythTV box with HW I have laying around my apartment unused (I have an AthlonXP 1600+ that I haven't turned on in two years - all it needs is a capture card) and I have the skills - I just don't have the inclination. I know people who use MythTV, and it is nice. But I get what I want from my TiVos without having to put any effort into it. And I'm happy with advances like TiVoToGo. If it comes to it I have no problem dumping my TiVos on eBay and moving to something else, but I've seen no reason to do so. (I have an old 60 hour (well, 180+ hour now) S2 that's been unplugged since I got my 810H last year too.)

For me MythTV has a ways to go before it could replace my TiVo for the functionality *I* use. I know for others MythTV does things TiVo doesn't (though some of them are available as add-ons, like JavaHMO's weather module, etc) and those are more important to them. That's the nice thing about options.

When I first started seriously shopping for a DVR, in late 2001, I looked at TiVo and ReplayTV and tried both units at friends' homes. I went with TiVo because it had the features that were more important to me (the scheduling system was vastly superior, IMHO). I continue to watch the DVR market and if something better comes along that can offer me a better experience, I'll take it. But TiVo has set a high bar to get over, for me.

[MegaZone]

VCRs are already dead. Manufacturers are dropping them as sales have tanked - even DVD Player sales are declining. DVR and DVD Recorder sales are on the rise.

[Aaron]

Additionally, might be interesting to know how much bandwidth these new ads will take, how often they are updated, will there be larger video advertisements associated with each that are pre-downloaded for the user so when you hit the thumbs up (or whatever it is) that it can just start playing.. Hopefully the Tivo developers thought about limited bandwidth connections and really are tastefully handling the situation.. I'll reserve "judgement" on the change until I see it in action - so far Tivo has done wonders for making the TV a place for my family and friends.. *crosses fingers that they don't do anything too annoying*

[Ant]

I am angry at Tivo for doing this because they just pulled the old switch-a-roo. Its like we all been taken prisoner by a company and they offered a product to lure us and then change it. I know TIVO IS A BUSINESS, so WHAT? is that justification on doing what they just did? they lied plain and simple. Most of all people will lose trust in Tivo, whats next? I dont know how a company can have over a 1 million customers and still not make $$$$$ I mean what was the Venture Capital Pitch like? Um Mr. Money..... we are going to need to put a Tivo in the homes of half of china to break even. I mean seriously, if they were going to do this, then just say it, dont sell a product with an expectation a customer has of it and then change it when he gets home. I was already mad at seeing reaking green thumbs for stupid Ford Trucks, i mean what am i paying for? Also Tivo has always been cocky about press releases and fan mail, whers the press release on tivos site for this? and where can i send in or call in my "fan" mail. I think I will just cancel my tivo and sell mine on Ebay.

[retrocat]

I definitely fall into the "Good bye TiVo camp."

I have endlessly frustrated by the lack of innovation:

The guide displays in a dirt slow speed.

No HD DVR for cable subscribers

Ads everywhere.

Ironically, I have stayed optimistic because I like the company and want them to win. Screw Microsoft and Comcast.

But TiVo has lost its soul, roots, and focus.

I hate to say it, but they're done. I too am probably going to buy the Sony HD DVR. I am not a Sony fan, and I am sure the UI will suck, but I don't wants ads over the cable I have already paid for.

[Tice]

Tivo has officaly SOLD US OUT !!!

Enjoy paying $12 a month for something a VCR can still do free without more added commericals. CANCEL YOUR TIVO NOW or SELL IT. Send TIVO a message !!!! for thoese of you who paid for LIFETIME, you just got Owned. What did you pay for? Think guys.

By pulling this crap, dont you think they wont do it again? take out the 30 second skip feature?

Tivo needs to stop making dumb features and make more products/services people ACTUALLY want. I mean WTF is this Home Media Feature? I now can listen to MP3's on my tivo? or watch pics on my TV? Thats so DUMB !!!!!! Online tv programming for tivo is a nice start but HMO, thats dumb.

[Andrew]

R.I.P. Tivo :(

Yea, Tivo now has become the new Nielsen Ratings system. Its not about Consumers, its about marketers. Tivo was a palce to get away from all these ads, now its comming into back into our world. Oh yea good luck getting in contact with tivo to "voice" your opinion. What makes me mad is that they just made a decision to change their service without my opinion. Let customers Opt out of this if they want to.

[MegaZone]

*yawn* I'm amused by the drama this has invoked. Much ado about nothing indeed.

Please, sell off your TiVos - I might buy one cheap to add to my collection.

A lot of people, myself included, love the home media features. My TiVo is connected to my sound system - so now I can listen to MP3s on my stereo with no real effort. If it is 'so dumb' why do so many users like it? Why do so many questions from users on their help forums relate to setting up a home network specifically so they can use music and photos? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is 'dumb'.

People only bitch when TiVo doesn't add the features *they* want to see. If it isn't what you want, it isn't innovation. And that's self-centered bullshit. You know, TiVo has a lot of features I don't give a shit about - but I don't think they're dumb. I'm sure someone else likes them. I really like 30 second skip - and there are people who think it is pointless and that FF is better. Fine with me.

And before you think I think they're perfect, I'm notorious for perhaps the longest existing list of RFEs submitted to TiVo: http://www.megazone.org/TiVo/TiVo-RFEs.html And I'm not shy about criticising TiVo, even on their own Help Forums. But this? I am seriously amused that people are so up in arms over this.

You know, when this rolls out (probably in the same release as TiVoToGo this year), I bet the vast majority of users will never know it. It will blow over and no one but a handful of geeks will care.

I'd also like someone to explain exactly how TiVo 'lied'. They have always been upfront about advertising being part of their business model and have always said they were looking for new ways to support advertising without ruining the user experience. I think you'd have to have had your head in the sand to be shocked by this.

I'd also like to see a VCR that can do what TiVo does. I used to use a high end VCR with IR blasters to control the cable box, etc. And that still didn't come close to 1/10th what TiVo lets me do.

So I say - please, sell your TiVos and build your MythTV boxes or buy the Sony HD-DVR (it does look like an interesting box - but I'm willing to wait to see what TiVo has to say at CES about CableCARD. There isn't enough HD to sway me - yet), if you're upset about such trivial things.

And when the MythTV developers add features you don't like or use - I suppose they'll be just as 'dumb' as TiVo.

[MegaZone]

Oh - in case you didn't know, Bob Dylan went electric.

;-)

[Bill]

If this keeps TIVO in the game so be it.. We are better off with TIVO surviving with this than no TIVO at all!!

[Dennis]

And, what about privacy? If you are watching Channel X and Show Z is on - will they have Google like banners with products seen in Show Z, products aimed at what you watch?

MythTV is looking real good.

[MegaZone]

What's wrong with the methods here? http://www.tivo.com/5.9.asp

Not to mention TiVo reps active in the TiVoCommunity.com forums and on the TiVo Help Forums. If you're going to send a complaint a written letter holds a hell of a lot more weight than a phone call. Any hot head can make a phone call in the heat of the moment - few people will bother to make the effort to send a letter. And if it isn't worth sending a letter, then it probably isn't worth changing.

[MegaZone]

AGAIN: The pop-ups are just when FFing through an *ad* and only for the product appearing in the add being FFed. No pop-ups in a show, and I'm surprised anyone thinks TiVo would be stupid enough to do that:
1. It'd be a sure way to *really* piss off the average user.
2. They'd be sued so fast by the networks and content providers they'd be served before the first pop-up even closed.

That kind of advertising was already tried on the web, and shot down hard. TiVo is smart enough not to try something that's already been trashed.

[SomeGuy]

I'd also like to know a good email address to write to. This provides ME with no benefit whatsoever, and I at least want the option to turn it off.

[MegaZone]

SomeGuy - it provides you with the benefit of TiVo not going under and hopefully turning a profit. Unless you like to see what happened to RTV happen to TiVo.

[SFuser]

I'm sorry, did you guys not notice the plethora of ads along this page? Google and otherwise - come on folks, advertising pays for content so it's cheaper or free for us. Get used to it. Furthermore, this is NOT AN ISSUE because it still allows you to fast forward at the same speed. If it was to slow down the fast forward feature, then maybe I'd complain, but it doesn't limit my functionality in the slightest. The only way those ads will get my attention is if they're relevant to me and that's fine. Way to go Tivo for finding a new revenue stream, I hope it's hugely successful so I can get more and more cool stuff out of them instead of the damn cable company.

[Matt Haughey]

Again, I wish TiVo provided a screenshot of what this might look like, because I'm just going on speculation of what it might look like, and I'll admit if I was wrong in saying it was a bad thing if it truly is unobstrusive. I've contacted someone at TiVo to request a screenshot for a followup post, but haven't heard anything.

I have heard that they may reduce the monthly fee when the advertising gets added, which sounds like a great idea and I hope that isn't just a rumor. On the bright side this will certainly get TiVo closer to profitability, and with that, hopefully they can continue to grow and innovate.

But I'm still dying to see a screenshot. Anyone? Ted Tipster? Help me out here.

[Greg Broiles]

As far as I can tell, Megazone's argument boils down to the following:

The ads don't matter, because nobody will notice them.

How much revenue do you expect Tivo to gain by selling ads that nobody notices?

Advertising isn't (when it works) just an exercise in vanity intended to make advertisers feel important because of their media visibility - it's used because it motivates consumers to change their behavior.

If there's no change in behavior, the ads fail, and they won't make any significant money for Tivo.

Users aren't excited about this change, because it represents a visible, tangible change for the worse - a net increase in the number of ads they're exposed to - with little or no perceptible improvement in their circumstances.

Now, if Tivo announced that they'd reduce or waive the subscription fee for people who agreed to be subjected to additional advertising (especially at a time when they're explicitly trying to *avoid* advertising and distractions), that might look like a reasonable bargain.

As it stands, this looks like Tivo and the advertisers are getting something - attention to their marketing messages - in exchange for nothing (or, more precisely, in exchange for preservation of the current pricing structure).

This sort of change makes Tivo a lot less attractive to me, and a less polished (but more flexible) PC-based system more attractive. We've got one Tivo, and have been contemplating the purchase of one or two more - but I'm getting the impression that Tivo may be too closely aligned with the MPAA/content guys and advertising people, and not very concerned with my preferences.

[New York]

Does anyone know how the beloved Google managed to generate $1 billion in revenue during 2003...by revolutionizing the ad model of the Internet - even with a backdrop of widespread distribution of pop-up blockers (albeit by "borrowing" Overture / Goto.com's business model innovation).
There are definitely major differences in the underlying nature of the experiences favoring Google, but it would appear as though TiVo is attempting something similar in TV.
And given TiVo's unparalleled understanding of user interface design, theyre best positioned to attempt such an endeavor.

[MegaZone]

Greg - I'm saying the ads are easily ignored. Sure, if one of them really interests me I may check it out. Just as I do with the Gold Star promos. But I don't *have* to check it out. And the nice thing about it is it is pseudo-targetted. I select if I want to learn more about the product or not. If someone markets something I'm really interested in I think it'd actually be nice to jump to a full description and more info, instead of the typical '30 second spot'.

So yes, this will lead to changes in behavior for some users. But the point is it is a *choice*. Your behavior doesn't *have* to change. You can FF and ignore ads just like you used to. But even then some people have said they'd stop and check out an ad if the blipvert version seemed interesting. And it isn't going to make someone blow up sitting on their couch. :-)

TiVo is in the red, they are taking a multi-pronged approach to fixing that. On the one hand their offering low prices and financing a major marketing push this year to radically up their subscribers, on another they'd introducing features like TiVoToGo to appeal to a wider market, and they're cultivating advertising revenue. It is all good for the consumer in the end from my POV.

I do hope someone from TiVo provides Matt with a screenshot to post. I think it would defuse the situation a lot.

[New York]

The more I think about it, from a PR perspective, this might be the most shortsighted and detrimental strategy ever. Every single newspaper / magazine, etc. article is going to misrepresent the issue, and the facts are going to morph like a bad game of telephone. All of a sudden, the perception is going to be that TiVo doesnt let you skip commercials...

[Matt Haughey]

Yeah, New York, that's my point about the releasing a screenshot thing. Many similar companies announce some wacky new thing and they frequently release a screenshot or two to press, to accompany articles so this doesn't happen.

Hopefully someone at TiVo PR is listening and can show us just how subtle and unobtrusive the ads will appear. I've gone back and re-read my original post and I don't think my tone is overly harsh, but a lot of people are saying they won't buy another TiVo or they want to get rid of their TiVos and I feel bad it has spiralled as long as it has.

[Dwight Shih]

Am I the only person who turns on closed captions and watches shows on fast forward?

I've got a Toshiba SD-H400 integrated DVD player/Tivo. It has 3 levels of fast forward and I find that closed caption works at the slowest level. It comes in handy when a show bogs down. If I miss the start of a game, then I'll also catch up to real time on fast forward.

I'd hate for banner ads to take that capability away from em.

[Ailin Gwathren]

Jeez, aren't there enough banner ads floating around on the internet? For the amount we pay for high speed, we shouldn't have to put up with that crap.

[AccessWallet]

There seems to be a lot of passion on both sides of the TIVO argument.

Question: Given that AD's are part of our society's commerce structure and given that ads do enable us to find things we want and need (in the best case), -- would it be acceptable for TIVO to 'allow' you to select from groups of content? For instance - if you have a high interest in car's or home improvement, perhaps tivo could allow you to select from catagories that would then serve up POP ads from those catagories? Or perhaps when those ads play, you get a SPECIAL pop up? One that flashes or something?

I think that rather than fighting the trend, consumers have the opportunity to embrace it and make their voice heard and to make this system work FOR them. This satifys TIVO's need for revenue, it meets your needs as a consumer to get information that is relevant and wanted and it keeps the advertisers in check and makes them work for us.

Thoughts?

[New York]

Matt:
Would it make any sense for you to create a running vote on the issue - if enough people were to vote against the idea, TiVo might reconsider and retract.
Is it possible that this was leeked in advance to get free user reaction in advance of deployment?

[MegaZone]

At this point TiVo is not going to pull the feature, period. They have nearly 3 million users by now (if they're still on track) and a handful of geeks (not their core target market) online asking them not to do it isn't going to change the course of a corporation. I expect that even if every geek upset by this never gave TiVo another dime it is still in their best interest to continue because the advertising revenue will more than offset the loss.

AccessWallet - The problem with the idea of targetting like that is that these pop-ups appear over the add your are FFing through. So the pop-up really has to be for the same product as the ad spot - TiVo would get in a lot of trouble if they allowed someone to overlay ads for a different product. That was tried on the web and shot down by the courts.

I agree it would be nice to see *only* targetted ads for things I've shown an interest in, but under the current system that's not quite possible. Maybe more targetted Gold Star promos, but it would have to be ads outside of the recorded stream. The only other way would be for TiVo to *insert* more ads - add a few seconds of black to the FF and run an ad over it - and I don't think anyone wants to see that.

[MegaZone]

Dwight, don't worry about it. The pop-ups only appear over *ads*. Basically if you are FFing through an ad for product X and that ad has been flagged, you see a static 'billboard' ad for product X instead of the blipvert of the ad on FF. It won't interfere with you watching the game on FF since it won't appear over the game, just the commercial breaks.

[cookie]

I often watch sports in fast forward...i have a feeling the banner adds are going to obscure the action and piss me off.

[New York]

MegaZone:
Check out the following headlines:
1. TiVo Users to Still See Many Ads
Reuters, UK - 18 hours ago
2. TiVo to Offer Ads That Can't Be Skipped
New York Times, NY - 10 hours ago
3. Ads to pop up when TiVo users scan past commercials
USA Today, VA - 9 hours ago
4. TiVo to become advertisers' best friend
Geek.com - 2 hours ago

Point is, there is definitely the potential for a significant shift in public perception based totally on misunderstanding and inaccurate media coverage. Geeks and early adopters aside (because those are actually the consumers who can differentiate between reality and hype), this type of initiative can definitely impact the average consumer. Its highly plausible that the average consumer in the Midwest will hear from an uninformed friend that glanced at the headlines one day - dont get a TiVo, those things dont even let you skip commercials. Extrapolate that a thousand times over and you should get the picture.

[MegaZone]

This isn't the first time the press has stuck their head up their ass in reporting on rumors. And, like blogs, it is incestuous - one paper prints a story and the same thing is parrotted all over. At this point there is really no point in stopping, the damage is done. Even if TiVo cancelled it it wouldn't be news.

[MegaZone]

Cookie: Read the comments, the ads only show up over other *ads*. So they're not going to obscure any action.

[Bob Edelman]

I just wish that TiVo would go ahead and roll this out. It doesn't seem like such a big deal to me from everything I've read (but not in the media)

The only way for people to really know how much of this is overblown hype or not is for TiVo to move quickly to implement this.

After all, a picture is worth a thousand words...

[Shalanna Collins]

Drat. Confound it. *$&#^. I have two lifetime subscriptions for our two TiVos and have a monthly sub for the one we put into my elderly mother's in-law room. That makes THREE boxes that will soon be boat anchors, I suspect. Though Mama uses hers in dumb mode--she always is cancelling the calls it wants to make because "it'll keep my phone busied out," and I can't get her to understand. It works fine for going back to catch what you missed while you were out. That makes for lots of ff/rewind action, though, and I do NOT think it is fair for those of us paying every month for the "service" (and already putting up with all those silly ad and promo videos that they store that I never look at even once) to have to get pop-up banners. I've done the hacks, but I always worry that their next involuntary "upgrade" will ruin them. Maybe my mom has the right idea--hers can't be upgraded and she just programs manually (actually, I do it for her) to record for a couple of hours on a particular channel, rather than doing it the automatic way. This still gives her digital stuff to watch. (sigh)

It's depressing to see so many people say they don't care, that it doesn't matter, or that it's TiVo's privilege to do this. They have us hooked and now they're changing the rules--that's the way I see it. But so many younger folks are inured to ads or were raised on brand names that it doesn't seem to bother them. After all, they're eager to wear T-shirts advertising one product or another, so what's the diff? It's only the beginning.

The people who are saying that this is only the beginning of the down-the-slippery-slope are probably right. This is related to the way that our government now supports corporate interests every time instead of individual taxpayer interests. It's all the bottom line, baby. That doesn't work well even in the capitalist market because the market gets fed up and goes away.

[Randle]

I really think this whole thing has been blown WAY out of proportion. Remember, nobody who is complaining about this has even SEEN it yet! (Minus Matt, who admits they only have a beta of this right now.) This seems to be classic TiVo-bashing, and I just don't get it. I get that the major press hates TiVo. It makes sense, after all they are in the pocket of the big boys that are threatened by TiVo (Comcast, TWC, M$, etc.). But I am blown away by the reaction of the geeks here who should know better and be ashamed of themselves. What has TiVo ever done that has "gotten it wrong"? They are continually lauded for their UI, their remote, their hardware, their friendliness to hacks, etc. What makes people so willing to throw in the towel on TiVo just because of an announcement that TiVo is working on something that hasn't even been fleshed out yet? I'm just flabbergasted.

First of all, let's look at this rationally. How long does it take to fast-forward through a single commercial on the full three FF clicks? A second? Maybe a second and a half? Do you really think TiVo is going to be throwing up threee and four billboard ads that only last a second and a half? Nobody would be able to make heads or tails of what they just saw and they certainly couldn't take another action based on it. I don't see any way it could work this way.

So, how long does it take to FF through the entire commercial break? 6 or 7 seconds? Ahh, now we are talking. If a static billboard came up on the top 25% of the screen, possibly semi-transparent, while you were FF'ing through the commercials and you could still see where to stop and you didn't have to learn to click on anything else, who the heck cares? It doesn't affect you ANY more than being forced to watch the commercials while they blaze by. Are you really going to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of that?

As a long-time TiVo user, this news doesn't bother me at all. I'm not going to assume they are going to flush the value of their number one feature (compressed viewing of time-shifted material) just to pick up a few extra advertising dollars. That would just be stupid, and TiVo has done nothing so far to indicate they are idiots.

[Bob Edelman]

OK, you're upset because you are paying TiVo for a service and that service in the past has allowed you to skip through commercials. You're feeling why should I be paying for a service that now is taking some of that capability away. You feel cheated because you were sold a product and service and now it looks like that is not for what you signed up.

You've read the articles in the newspapers and you've heard the broadcast news about what this means to you as a consumer and how this is yet a further intrusion upon your lifestyle.

Well, I'm here to tell you that you shouldn't be upset by this at all -- if nothing else, don't be upset until you really see for yourself what this truly is. After all if people believed everything they heard and read, the world would be a far different place (and in my opinion a far worse off one at that).

You probably purchase a newspaper every day (or subscribe to one). You're paying for a service aren't you? Do you get upset when they begin to put in larger and more attention grabbing advertisements during the holiday season? I doubt it. A popular place for advertisements in both newspapers and magazines (oh, you pay for those too) is the "back page". Why do you think that is? It's because it's more likely to grab your attention. You have the right to ignore it but it just might be something in which you are interested and if it was buried in the middle of the newspaper or magazine, you might not see it.

What TiVo is doing with this is not much different at all. You can still skip or fast-forward through an advertisement. Advertisements aren't co-mingled with meaningful content either (like they are with a print publication). The "billboard" advertisement is merely an approach to get your attention just in case you might be speeding past something in which you might be interested. If you are, you can drop out of warp speed and see what it's all about -- if not, you don't have to do so and you can proceed back to your program that you want to watch.

I find it odd that no one has questioned the motives of the media. After all, where do you think they obtain most of their revenue? It comes from advertising, of course. If there was a device that would remove all advertising from the media, who do you think that would injure the most? It wouldn't heavily injure the makers of the products because they'd always have another avenue available to them. It hurts the media the most -- it has removed a critical source of revenue for them. Revenue that pays the salaries of the reporters and newscasters who are feeding their side of this story to you.

Am I saying they dislike TiVo? I don't think so, but the capability that TiVo has provided in the past has certainly made television commercial advertising less viable. With only three million subscribers, the effect is minimal but it might not always be so.

But think about it -- who would benefit the most by portraying a biased presentation about what TiVo is planning? Once you realize that, you'll come to the realization that what you're reading and hearing about might not be all that unbiased after all.

[kevborg]

Doesn't sound bad to me. Still can just ff.
Luckily, nobody is required to keep Tivo.
I'm still amazed at how much better my Tivo's 5(?)-year-old tech is than my new Time-Warner HD-DVR. The latter is total crap. No bookmarks for where I am in programs, no hash marks for skipping through programs quickly, occasional hangs, sluggish and confusing interface,...just amazingly bad. I've yet to see an HD program I'd care to keep, so maybe I'll just get a Series2 once my HDDVR is no longer free.

[SomeGuy]

MegaZone

Bullcrap. How is it a benefit to me if these "features" make the service no longer worthwhile? It's not my job to figure out how Tivo should keep itself alive - and I don't need to shut up and take it when they change their service in ways that provide me with no benefit and in fact destroy one of the reasons to use it in the first place. Tivo is not a hero to be worshipped, it is a service to be used as long as it's useful and dumped when it's not. For me, the commercials-on-commercials might just be the dumping point.

[Christine]

It's just sad that they are forcing Tivo to do this. For a number of years, people have recorded TV shows and fast-forwarded through ads. Now that technology has advanced, they throw a fit.

Almost makes me want to get my VCR back out of the closet.

[Spencer Sloan]

THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE END.
IT WAS A NEAR PERFECT INVENTION, BEFORE.
NO LONGER.
IF YOU SAY THIS IS NOT A BIG DEAL, THEN YOU ARE A TOTAL IDIOT.

[girl]

I just keep getting happier and happier that we opted for a DV-R through our cable company rather than Tivo.

[Dave K.]

Ok so here is my take on this nightmare.

Man invents Wheel, it worked very well! man screws it up later on, by adding a 90 angle that cause the attached cart to throw the rider. So tivo is going to add this "feature" that is going to turn off new users. New users that are growing increasingly more convergence ready and are looking at Home Theater PC systems anyway. The really smart technology users will be using open source linux based (free software and cheap hardware = good for consumer) systems. Open source means some 15-16 year old, that has never seen a naked woman (except on his PVR) will hack the crap out of the code. Sure this means channel 17 will come in backward and in dutch, qut no one PVRs QVC to my knowledge. Maybe one side effect of the hacking of source will be that you can unlock pay per veiw and the spice channel, that might be nice (or a pipe dream). The fact of the matter is this, if perfection is ever obtained by man, we screw it up. Just look at the Venus de Milo, realy handy baby ain't she.

Yes I am mad that when I am fast forwarding I will still see ad's. but what has me concerned is that from a technical stand point. Tivo will "know" when there is a ad? As a programer, I know this is possible, but requires way more work then to just say:

if(FFW==1)
{
func_ad_stream ();
}
for you non-C++ people, while fast forwarding always show a ad. rather then having to write more complex code for detecting when a ad starts and stops. simple put, you like to watch the guy get hit in the nuts with the football during the game at high speed, you get the joy of a jingle that will be stuck in your head. Anyone remember what car company hi-jaked the slinky jingle, oh yea....

Ok so lets say they do higher some really out there coders to write ad detection and completion routines, now cost of service went up to cover the salaries of those programers. And oh yea, now those piss anoying Tivo "static & bar code" updates may take longer. not to mention that more of the space on your pvr will be used just for storing info about when ad's start and stop. And not to mention even more space will be used to hold those pesky banner ads!

Another issue is this, when will they put audio ads in when you hit mute? Mute works very well on my Tivo. Lay off that button F***ers, I don't want to hear about new womanly type products while trying to be dirty on the phone with my Girl (who by the way started to cry when she read this blog, thanks).

The previous poster suggests that this addition will help make tivo profitable. Non-sense, what would help make tivo profitable is better liscesning deals with the satilte and cable companies. Adding pay per use features: like adding a dvd-r and charging your tivo account 5$ to burn the last game Red Socks winning the world series (as it will never happen again, thats worth 5$). Integrating services like fandango and Itunes, seeing as the newer pvrs all seem to use a ethernet jack, the internet and have USB2 ports (fire wire is still better!), it might make some sense. hmmm sync my ipod with my tivo, as I order movie tickets and tell the pvr to record the game, I would pay an extra fee to do all that with out leaving my couch. Maybe a dating service that matches users based off their veiwing habits(If I had know my ex-wife watched so much Dallas, I would never have marreid her), right there another 10$ a month, out of my pocket. See, there are other ways of becoming profitable.

Before I offer up any solutions, here is my prediction, a Arby's banner ad will be streamed over a Burger King ad. Burger King will sue the pants off Tivo for infringing on there contracted ad. Arby's Will sue tivo for mis-representing the size of their product in contrast with Burger Kings smaller burger. In this possible future we all loose, Tivo Goes belly up, no one eats at arby's (in turn they go belly up), and burger king now has a freaky guy in a papermache mask at the foot of your bed (if we are talking ad's may as well use some recent ones).

But I have 2 solutions! Try reading a book or put a piece of duct tape over where the banner ads spawn.

[sven]

Its a sad sad day when TiVo lost its way. Like was said early, its no longer TV your way, its TV their way. This is just another example of a company moving into the mainstream and selling its soul for an extra buck.

Its a sad day for all TiVo users.

[Neil]

Being a student of history it has been apparent that we are undegoing a period of conditioning,TIVO is such an instance the
major networks control what,where and when we see,we are now
conditioned to pay for via cable for paid ads!generally over priced
fees on top of all else.We now see users [tivo}serving as explainers of the profit system,as if we needed a further lesson.
Remember psychology 101,see Pavlov`s work with conditioning dogs,
then take a look in the mirror.over time they not be happy until
they and their greed,insatiable as is destroys the golden goose!