Interview with TiVo legal head, and HBO clips your wings

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Interview with TiVo legal head, and HBO clips your wings

The new WIRED magazine has a short interview with TiVo's head of legal, Matthew Zinn about their recent change to remove features from TiVo. Zinn claims it was a one-time deal to allow TiVos to auto-delete Pay Per View and Video On Demand movies, but the interviewer points out that it might just be a trojan horse of more things to come.

It sounds like TiVoToGo is the reason for the change, as content providers didn't want people to be able to transfer their shows to a PC that could burn them to DVD. I would have rather seen those high priced bits of content blocked from TTG functionality, than to see things get an auto-delete setting. If I buy Shrek 2 for four bucks via PPV tonight, and I keep it around on my TiVo, how likely am I to buy it all over again in a month or two if TiVo erases it automatically? If there's no way to remove Shrek 2 from my TiVo, why does it have to delete itself?

I'm siding with WIRED over Zinn on the issue of this being the first of many such "features" added to satisfy the content industries, as HBO has announced they'll be locking down all their content to make sure no one can make copies of their shows to watch on other devices.

Hopefully this HBO news isn't the first of many such annoucements, but I'm almost certain it will be.

by Matt Haughey October 27, 2004 in News

Comments

Ergh. If HBO and the like can choose to opt-out of TivoToGo, then what's the point? Has time-shifting become limited only to content such as reruns and the like?

Anyone want to guess how much longer it is until Tivo caves and removes the fast forward functionality so they don't step on advertisers' toes?

Honestly, if this is the price that is being paid in order to do TivoToGo, Tivo can seriously shove the Windows-only technology up its *^%$$&%$##@.

As a Tivo-loving Mac user who was looking forward to this, I'm obviously pissed.

Posted by: Chris Karr at Oct 27, 2004 10:59:21 AM

Will the same apply to Windows Media Center machines?

Posted by: Joost Schuur at Oct 27, 2004 11:55:35 AM

The reason that TiVo has to auto-delete a PPV movie is because it will be available for sale on DVD later on. You can't pay just $4 to permanently own Shrek 2. The price to permanently own it is $20, or whatever consumers are willing to pay for the DVD. If you'd like to pay the difference in price between the DVD and PPV for the right to permanently keep Shrek 2 on your hard drive, then TiVo, the consumer electronics and entertainment industries will certainly make that happen, because it's in their economic interest and it matches with consumer demand. But until that business model is a reality, this is the proper choice for TiVo if it doesn't want to face huge lawsuits from entertainment companies looking to protect their DVD sales.

Posted by: Bob Valentine at Oct 27, 2004 4:27:55 PM

But a PPV movie on TiVo isn't at all like "permanently owned" like a DVD is. If you ignore TTG features, you will never get the movie off your TiVo. It's just like a saved show.

If I wanted portability and all the extras, I'd pay the $20 for a DVD of Shrek. But if I want to save a favorite movie or show on my TiVo, I expect it to stay there as long as I want, not what some dumb studio thinks.

I wonder if TiVo has ever heard of "remember the customer is always right."

Posted by: Matt Haughey at Oct 27, 2004 5:02:20 PM

Wow, they're gonna let you keep it for even a little while? PPV uses the "copy never" flag so technically all you can do is MAYBE a pause buffer, but even being able to record it for later viewing is a pretty liberal interpretation of the regs.

FWIW the ONLY content using copy never is PPV and VOD.

Posted by: Ian at Oct 27, 2004 8:41:22 PM

Yet another example of copy protection that hurts legitimate users of a technology more than the pirates.

Legitimate user: Pays for a PPV movie but doesn't get around to watching it, and it ends up getting deleted. Paid $4 for nothing.

Pirate: Pays for a PPV movie (or has a cable/satelite descrambler), and then copies the movie off of his hacked TiVo and burns it to DVD.

The person who is hurt here is the legitimate consumer, not the person who they're is doing something wrong.

Posted by: Skane at Oct 28, 2004 8:26:45 AM

"Owning" a movie in a tivo is nothing at all like "owning" a dvd. You get none of the alleged portability, none of the extra programming. But I'm also sick of buying the same DVD every year or two because the thing just magically "lost bits" and now won't play all the way through.

Nope... from now on its newsgroups and rentals. No more buying DVDs - they'll just live on my hard drive until I decide I no longer want them. At least that way I'll know why "bits are gone." And I don't need to tivo West Wing or buy the $75 American Dreams box set... I'll just download the HD rips (much higher quality than I ever got from my long departed and very expensive DirecTivo) provided by some anonymous friend who's living off in some country where they have good quality broadcasts and much more liberal copyright laws.

Posted by: pt at Oct 28, 2004 8:30:11 AM

Silly, just bypass the TOD features. Get a bridge device and run the feed into your computer to record it, like a DV feed. Then simply make your burn from that.

Posted by: TivoLuver at Oct 28, 2004 8:31:46 AM

This shouldn't be that difficult to defeat for people who have a seperate cable box or satellite receiver. You could theoretically set up a manual record on another channel other than the PPV and then change the cable box/satellite to your PPV channel after the recording starts. When Tivo records it it won't know that its a PPV show. It would treat that recording just like any other. Of course this method requires all sorts of manual intervention but if you absolutely have to have that recording it can be done.

Posted by: wcadrin at Oct 28, 2004 8:47:45 AM

I am sure that this was not a service removal that TiVo volunteered to do. TiVo is doing this under pressure of the media companies. Who, aparently have more pull than their customers. But I don't hold TiVo responsible. Maybe it is my undieing love for my DirecTiVo box... heh

My response to this is to NEVER buy anything off of a pay-per-view service again. Problem solved for me. If I want to see a movie, I will add it to my NetFlix queue...

Bite the hand, and the hand punches back...

Posted by: Lynch at Oct 28, 2004 9:47:24 AM

This plan sounds just like a backdoor Divx (not the newer Internet video format DivX, but the old DVD competitor) model -- pay money to "rent" a disc for a period of time, until it "expires" and can no longer be played. While the studios loved Divx, consumers hated it, and the more open model, DVD, won.

The only effective action for Tivo owners is to boycott PPV *completely* -- just NEVER, EVER buy a PPV movie and put it on your Tivo. From our point of view, it's a "Pay Per Delete" model, and our interest is zero. If that combines with enough increase in Tivo market share, maybe eventually the PPV companies will be motivated to make a better deal with Tivo. PPV is a big revenue stream for movie companies, and taking it away from them in the PVR market would be a real and substantial threat.

I do think, though, that this is a skirmish and we're going to lose it. The Tivo market isn't big enough nor is it growing fast enough for a boycott to generate enough notice from the "dumb" analyst. (A great boycott makes the economic conclusion obvious to even a stupid analyst -- a smart analyst wouldn't need the boycott to be effective to predict its outcome.)

Posted by: Marc Hedlund at Oct 28, 2004 10:04:42 AM

Why bother, the Pioneer TiVo DVD burner I have will let me record shows to DVD-R/RW media. Just record it and copy it before TiVo decides to delete it. All of these concerns are gone with the DVD burner versions of TiVo, you can archive any show to DVD for later reuse.

I can see in the case of TiVo-to-Go, because there is some potential of close to real-time streaming of the show thru the internet. But lets face-it, how many people are really going to do that. The majority are going to transfer it just like room to room works now and watch it after it has been recorded. And I don't have any problems with the NFL saying you can't watch it in real-time outside of the market it was intended for.

Posted by: Brown2 at Oct 28, 2004 10:14:29 AM

"My response to this is to NEVER buy anything off of a pay-per-view service again."

While probably a smart move, it doesn't solve the problem because the likes of HBO and the NFL are now working to further thwart recording. Digital TV with DRM is a studio's and broadcster's wet dream. Now, THEY pull the strings. Now THEY dictate what and when YOU watch TV.

So much for fair use...unless you consider being handcuffed by the industry as fair use.

Posted by: Jim at Oct 28, 2004 10:22:26 AM

I'm sick and tired of being treated like a criminal. Treat your legitimate customers like pirates and they'll become pirates.

I see this as a slippery slope with no end (why should it, the industry has no incentive to stop). "Content owners" think of us as nothing more than revenue sources. Truth is, the "content" is not that great. I can do without another reality TV show or "White Chicks".

I think it's time to turn off the TV and there's not much worth listening to (CDs) or watching (Movies). I figure I can save $2,000-$3,000 each year when all is said and done. That's a nice vacation.

Posted by: Mark Munz at Oct 28, 2004 10:31:26 AM

This is why I've started migrating back to books. Most of the stuff on TV is crap anyway.

Posted by: barrett at Oct 28, 2004 11:16:49 AM

"This shouldn't be that difficult to defeat for people who have a seperate cable box or satellite receiver. You could theoretically set up a manual record on another channel other than the PPV and then change the cable box/satellite to your PPV channel after the recording starts. When Tivo records it it won't know that its a PPV show."

Actually the technology is based on a new version of Macrovision, so as soon as the cable box changed channels the TiVo would detect the Macrovision signal and mark the recording approperiately.

You could hover put one of those "video stabelizer" devices between the box and TiVo and strip the Macrovision before it even got to the TiVo.

"Why bother, the Pioneer TiVo DVD burner I have will let me record shows to DVD-R/RW media. Just record it and copy it before TiVo decides to delete it. All of these concerns are gone with the DVD burner versions of TiVo, you can archive any show to DVD for later reuse."

Unfortunately Pioneer units are designed to prevent you from burning any Macrovision encoded program to DVD. So this would not work either.

Dan

Posted by: Dan at Oct 28, 2004 11:36:39 AM

I have a DVD burner already - no need to transfer to my computer to create the DVD. It works like a VCR. This just gives me more reason to create a Divx file and share it on the internet...

Posted by: Damon at Oct 28, 2004 11:53:00 AM

Yet another reason why you can have my DRM-free ReplayTV 5000s when you pry them out of my cold, dead fingers.

Posted by: Will Collier at Oct 28, 2004 12:06:34 PM

>>But I'm also sick of buying the same DVD every year or two because the thing just magically "lost bits" and now won't play all the way through.<<

What in God's name are you doing to your DVDs? I have over 200 DVDs and have never had an issue with any of them, and many of them are 7 years old now.

Stealing DVDs off of newsgroups due to this alleged "bit loss" is just a sorry excuse to justify your theft.

Posted by: Chupacabra at Oct 28, 2004 12:13:04 PM

To the guys with DPV burner on their PVR:

if you don't hack your box, DRM protected broadcasts (like PPV or select HBO shows), will not be transfered to DVD. The box will simply state something like "sorry, this show contains protected material, and can not be burned to a DVD". On a all-in-one box, you're pretty much stuck as you can't (without hacks) disable the macrovision stuff.

I feel that this is again a move like the "region protection" scheme that was developped for the DVDs: only people in the US are still getting locked players, in (almost) every other country, stores offer a free (or very cheap) fee to dezone players.
Who gets screwed in this: most of the american people (there are still some that know where/how to get their players hacked).

Posted by: Nicolas at Oct 28, 2004 12:38:30 PM

Wow, just more reason for me to give the big middle finger to the studios. What it really comes down to is the greedy bastards drooling over charging you for EVERYTHING you watch. That's why the big push for VOD, as they want total control. It's all about the money, and nothing to do really with piracy, as they're just using piracy as a front to charge legitimate users more. Pirates will *ALWAYS* be able to copy your stuff. It's the "casual pirate" in his living room that they want to stop. Well, sad thing is, they've expanded that definition of "casual pirate" to include all sorts of Fair Use. So where is it going to stop? Are we all now pirates because we choose to keep the $4 PPV movie that we saw? One word: BULLSHIT.

Like RIAA, the MPAA and everyone else at the studios are refusing to do what the market wants, and are forcing the market to circumvent them. Since when did it become about the provider? The provider should always be listening to the market, and within reason, providing what the market wants. Thus the phrase that was coined: "the customer is always right"

I watched a PVR recorded event last night that was an issue of Nightline discussing the whole RIAA/MP3 issue. What was so very interesting and relavant to this topic is that the recording studios complained at another time when another disruptive technology caused them to loose sales. The introduction of Radio. They whined and wailed at the "Death of music" because of the radio, and how it made music so free that nobody would buy records anymore. They got laws passed to give them money for every song played on radio. Still, they complained as if it was the end of the world. Yet, the radio was one of the best things to happen to music, and bolstered sales later on when they finally embraced the technology. We've seen the same thing happen with file sharing, as they called the "Chumba wumba hypocracy". That is, the album that had one good song on it costs $18, and burned the end user because there was no single. Thus end users have turned to file sharing, or even services like iTunes to give them what they really want.

So it appears that the same things are happening in the Movie/TV arena. Unfortunately for them, this use of the "iron fist" is not going to give them more money, it's rather going to have the opposite effect, as more and more people tune out TV and movies and return to books, or circumvent them altogether and become "Pirates" to do what they once were able to do under fair use.

Posted by: Todd at Oct 28, 2004 12:47:12 PM

The only reason I ever purchased a PPV is so that I could watch it at my leasure, and yes, it was generally just once. I would record in the middle of the night and watch it as I had time. If it will auto-delete than I will never buy PPV again. Perhaps this is what Blockbuster wants when they took over DirecTV's PPV programming - to get us back in the store. All this has done is confirmed that they do not want use to use PPV. DirecTV - this is not the way to get more service dollars from me.

Posted by: Mark at Oct 28, 2004 12:53:30 PM

Well yes, it won't let you record it to the DVD on the pioneer. But you can easily get around that. Just setup a different recording and change the cable channel to PPV. The TiVo will think its not recording the PPV program and you will be able to transfer it to DVD then.. It's not hard to get around it if you use a cable box.

Posted by: Brown2 at Oct 28, 2004 12:59:54 PM

Question: Will this auto-delete flag apply to TiVo boxes that have the TiVoToGo (TTG) functionality, or will it apply to all TiVo boxes?

Comment: The whole concern over TTG and TiVO in general is not that people can hook up a VCR to the video out... frankly, that's an old and dead argument. The Analog Hole will always be there. It's DIGITAL leaking of the content that they're scared of.

A DirecTiVo receives a digital feed from the satellite; normally, it's only going out over imperfect S-Video or composite feeds (analog), but with TTG, you're talking about a digital feed out to a computer, which is a much more open platform and far easier to develop easy-to-use software to "crack" the feed.

There's already ways to rip PPV content or whatever else off your TiVo in digital form. The catch is you have to be savvy enough to modify your box, or find someone to do it for you, and still be willing to use rather poor (by commercial standards) software interfaces to retrieve it to your computer. This limits it to a hobbyist market. If the mass market can just download a program, like so many did with the "cable modem uncappers", then it becomes a real threat.

Reality: PPV is "Pay Per View". Think about the actual definition of that statement. Pay for each viewing of the movie. As someone said, the fact that you can record PPV content at all is a minor coup. When you purchase a PPV viewing (on DTV, anyways), you have a window of time during which you can watch it.. 12 or 24 hours, I don't recall. By letting you record it, TiVO removes that limitation. I don't like it, but honestly, they're just bringing TiVo in line with what is available to the rest of the world already, and doing it for a potentially valid reason.

For concerns that "oh, but if I buy it and don't watch it before I deleted it", may you should think twice. Why would you buy a PPV viewing if you're not ready to watch it? The whole point of PPV is convenience; buy it on an impulse, when you're ready to watch it, rather than going to the vid store or putting it in your Netflix queue. Seriously.

Would it be nice if we we retained our blessed ability to archive PPV viewings indefinitely? Sure. Would it be nice if we could burn them to DVD? I'm sure most consumers would favor that view. Should we be concerned about future changes? Absolutely. Is this particular change that big of a deal? Not really. After renting/buying a DVD or PPV movie, how many times do you watch it, on average, within 2 weeks? 1 month? 6 months? Is it usually less than 2?

Posted by: macker at Oct 28, 2004 1:36:05 PM

The content provider's arguments haven't changed a bit. As someone mentioned in an earlier post, they claimed that radio would ruin record sales (it didn't it helped) then later argued (and lost) that VCRs recordability would ruin sales of movies. In the case of the VCR fortunately the judge didn't listen and gave us "fair use". MP3s where going to ruin music sales (they didn't). Subsequently they sold billions of dollars worth of video tape movies and television programs. They have been wrong about EVERY technology shift in the last 80 years.

At a proper price point the vast majority will purchase and keep a copy of a song, movie, etc. It is only when the providers set the price too high that people even "think" about pirating a copy. Cutting the price in half also doesn't always mean half the revenue. Most of the time the sales triple (or quadruple) more than making up the difference. This is a non-linear problem and the providers continue to only be able to think in a linear fashion.

Personally I abhor PPV and the only time I've used it is for football games that I watch live. I think that paying $4.00 to watch a movie a single time via PPV is outrageous.

Posted by: Larry at Oct 28, 2004 2:11:07 PM

People are you being hoodwinked right now as you read this? yes you are. Are any of these posters even thinking about what is changing? No. No one is thinking about the system clamping down on regular tv watching.

Ok lets get ppv movies out of the way. Ok it may not be good for some of you to lose the ability to record a ppv movie, but that is nothing when you compare the fact that NBC could lock you out from recording the last episode of your favorite show, because later on they want to sell it as a DVD. Think about what is coming and they can change the rules on us again. Remember that you can record tv with a VCR. But soon you will not be able to record any HBO shows(I am not just talking about their movies). Hmm after HBO goes and locks you out every major tv channel will be locking you out. This is our future. Before long your Tivo will not do any of the things you bought it to do. Remember when all you wanted to do was record Sienfeld in syndication every nigt. Not anymore you don't, they are putting out DVDs of the Sienfeld series so the networks that want to show Sienfeld will have to lock down Sienfeld so Tivo users can not record it. After these things change shows will have the ability to be tagged as non recordable. This may make your Tivo To Go just as useless and a VCR tape. Good luck as I will be looking to move to computer based PVR for the future. Tivo after the change will loose my dollar. I know it will not matter much, but I will be proud to NOT support them when it happens.

Posted by: marcus at Oct 28, 2004 2:52:27 PM

All I know is when you purchase a DVD you get the portability along with all the crap "they" think is worth something. How about dropping the extra DVD and the extra content and sell the DVD for $10. Then the price for PPV and a DVD will be closer and they won't feel like I'm ripping them off.

Posted by: Replay4Life at Oct 28, 2004 2:57:48 PM

I'm part of the 'cold dead hands' TiVo loving community - for now.

I spend more than 50 bucks a month on DirecTV standard, every single one of the movie channels, the feeble HDTV feeds, and my D-TiVo service. I'm thinking about getting a second HD receiver for the HD TV upstairs. We don't rent from Blockbuster, but do buy the movies and series we enjoy. My household is 'exactly' who the big companies want. However, if the networks, and HBO, and PPV and the television makers (Sony, RCA) and TiVo don't let me do what I want with my shows (no braodcast flag, no macrovision crap) then I'll stop cold turkey. No more money sent to these people every month. Oh, the advertisers won't appreciate fewer sets of eyeballs watching TV.

I'll also lobby my congressmen and ask that all of these bastages pay more for the use of my airwaves.

Posted by: Pissed Off at Oct 28, 2004 5:15:49 PM

"Well yes, it won't let you record it to the DVD on the pioneer. But you can easily get around that. Just setup a different recording and change the cable channel to PPV. The TiVo will think its not recording the PPV program and you will be able to transfer it to DVD then.. It's not hard to get around it if you use a cable box."

As I said above this is not something that TiVo gets from guide data. It's a Macrovision signal embeded in the video stream that the TiVo detects while it's recording. Which means this "trick" will NOT work, because as soon as you change the channel on the box the TiVo will detect the macrovision signal and mark the recording as protected. The ONLY way to get around this (short of hacking) will be to remove the Macrovision signal from the video stream before it gets to the TiVo. Which requires one of those third party "video stabilizer" boxes.

Dan

Posted by: Dan at Oct 28, 2004 6:06:05 PM

"The ONLY way to get around this (short of hacking) will be to remove the Macrovision signal from the video stream before it gets to the TiVo. Which requires one of those third party "video stabilizer" boxes.

Dan"

I tried that with my Toshiba DVR on a HBO channel - doesn't work the 'copy never' signal still makes it through.

BobP

Posted by: Bob at Oct 29, 2004 5:34:31 AM

My thoughts are that PPVs are for limited time, so I personally have to probem with them being deleted after a time. What PPV providers can probably do (mine has the technical capability), is sell the feature with the copy bits set to copy once, so you can record it to VCR or DVD,or indefinatly hold it on your DVR. (of course for a higer price).

AFAIK the Hollywood VS The VCR case was about Time Shifting, not archiving (which some people confuse), which I don't think the PPV/HBO anti copy flag will impact upon.

Posted by: GaryT at Oct 29, 2004 7:11:49 AM

"I tried that with my Toshiba DVR on a HBO channel - doesn't work the 'copy never' signal still makes it through.

BobP"

This new version of Macrovision is different, so it may require a new generation of "video stabilizers" to defeat.

Dan

Posted by: Dan at Oct 29, 2004 9:24:54 AM

Folks, you can whine and holler all you like but the broadcast flag is here and it is not going away.

ON HBO it's "copy once" and my Toshiba RD-X2 sees it and will not let me burn it. However, I have not yet dusted off my TBC to see if that does the trick. In the analog space using an external tuner (IE: slaved STB via IR blasting) this will alwasy be hackable.

But, with the transition to digital things get tough for folks who just want to hoard their video like they did with VHS back in the day.

It sucks, but it's not going away. I think you'll alwasy be able to record and you'll have 30 second skip but being able to pull content off the boxes will be a challenge.

Personally, I don't care. I don't keep "backups" or watch movies on my laptop. And since PPV is on demand now I see no reason to record it and at least with Comcast the on demand PPV gives you a window in which to complete viewing the program.

For folks who like to keep a historical archive of what they watch this will be a giant PITA.

Posted by: Ian at Oct 29, 2004 2:33:39 PM

will this be on dish pvr or just tivo

Posted by: hildred at Oct 30, 2004 1:18:24 AM

As Matthew Zinn said:

"But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want."

And, as one Tivo user responded:

"I'm sick and tired of being treated like a criminal. Treat your legitimate customers like pirates and they'll become pirates."

At least we're all in agreement.

Posted by: Jim at Nov 1, 2004 1:58:14 PM

Question: Can't you simply now buy the Humax DRT800 that has TiVo with it..then you can just burn a dvd of anything recorded on Tivo?

Posted by: James at Nov 9, 2004 11:04:11 PM

Studios are wasting there money on protection schemes. The hackers will always win. If it can be made than it can be copied. Its a never ending cycle.

Posted by: YourFriendlyNeighborhoodHacker at Feb 13, 2005 10:05:54 PM

One word. Replay.

Posted by: MarkC at May 16, 2005 9:46:54 AM

Interview with TiVo legal head, and HBO clips your wings

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